Gender roles

[Kage]

I... we just had a several page or posts-worth of discussion that snowballed...

 

because Seekers -aren't- governed by Nunhs typically. It's in the lore that

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

 

This is not mean to derail but... just because lore says that Keepers are Matriarchal does not mean that Seekers are Patriarchal.

[Melkire]

So, in summary: the answer is aether. magic.

 

:angel:

[Gaspard]

I... we just had a several page or posts-worth of discussion that snowballed...

 

because Seekers -aren't- governed by Nunhs typically. It's in the lore that

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

 

This is not mean to derail but... just because lore says that Keepers are Matriarchal does not mean that Seekers are Patriarchal.

 

Oh, right. I forgot that detail. Nunh status was only related to breeding rights right?

[Warren Castille]

Those of you who've done the Amal'jaa beastman quests may have noted that, with the merchant goods recovery quest, he questions how you managed to carry multiple large crates of goods all that way. The answer is obvious: you're superhuman thanks to your insane talent with all things aether (which also explains why you can train any class and any job with equal effectiveness), which may or may not be related to the blessing of Hydaelyn et al. Kind of a Mary Sue/Chosen One style of explanation, but that's how the PC works in this universe, and it's probably the reason why gender equality is actually a thing here (I mean, besides just being a nice thing to have IRL).

 

So, in summary: the answer is aether.

 

I'm 99% sure that line is meant to reference the fact that we're doing an impossible task outside of a video game. Not everything in the game is meant to be taken at face value.

[TheLastCandle]

Amalj'aa sound like dwarves. In certain dwarven subraces, it's extremely common for both males and females to grow long, luxurious beards. As you can imagine, this is sometimes very confusing. For this reason, the dwarves of old instituted the annual Lifting of the Beards festival. The subterranean dwarves dance naked beneath the light of torches, there are literally days and days of revelry of the sort in which only dwarves are rowdy enough to partake. During this most sacred of gyrations, the dwarves lift their beards to display the heretofore concealed portions of their anatomies to their dance partners. If said partner is pleased with what they see, well - you can guess at the rest.

 

I may have made that whole thing up just now, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Kage]

I... we just had a several page or posts-worth of discussion that snowballed...

 

because Seekers -aren't- governed by Nunhs typically. It's in the lore that

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

 

This is not mean to derail but... just because lore says that Keepers are Matriarchal does not mean that Seekers are Patriarchal.

 

Oh, right. I forgot that detail. Nunh status was only related to breeding rights right?

Pretty much. I'm pretty sure most peoples' conception of Nunh and Seeker tribes is because of the U tribe.

[111]

Amalj'aa sound like dwarves. In certain dwarven subraces, it's extremely common for both males and females to grow long, luxurious beards. As you can imagine, this is sometimes very confusing. For this reason, the dwarves of old instituted the annual Lifting of the Beards festival. The subterranean dwarves dance naked beneath the light of torches, there are literally days and days of revelry of the sort in which only dwarves are rowdy enough to partake. During this most sacred of gyrations, the dwarves lift their beards to display the heretofore concealed portions of their anatomies to their dance partners. If said partner is pleased with what they see, well - you can guess at the rest.

 

I may have made that whole thing up just now, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

I would lift your beard, if you know what I mean.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm 99% sure that line is meant to reference the fact that we're doing an impossible task outside of a video game. Not everything in the game is meant to be taken at face value.

Considering all the seemingly impossible things the PC does over the course of the main story alone, I'm not so certain about this.

[Warren Castille]

I'm 99% sure that line is meant to reference the fact that we're doing an impossible task outside of a video game. Not everything in the game is meant to be taken at face value.

Considering all the seemingly impossible things the PC does over the course of the main story alone, I'm not so certain about this.

 

You're taking the single-player mindset of the Chosen One and applying it to the entire population, though. Not everything as it appears in game is a direct, literal effect on the world. When you're carrying corpses for a main story quest, they're represented in your key items as flowers, and you carry several at once. I don't think they actually turned into flowers for you to sprint full speed with.

 

This is a matter of opinion, though. I just think the local team was having fun with the language and leaning on the fourth wall a bit.

[111]

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

 

The fact remains that Lalafells and Roe's are shown to be roughly equal physically speaking. Otherwise no one would ever make a lalafell a brass blade, and papashan wouldn't be the hero of the sultansworn. So clearly a person can be roughly on par with someone 4 to 5 times their height and bodymass.

 

So either A: Roe's have the worst muscle density ever, and lalafells have the best.

 

Or B: Physical musculature is only a part of strength, and everyone, even fighters use aether to reinforce their actions.

 

I think option B is more plausible. Not everyone may be aware they're doing it, but they probably are.

 

The only flaw in this plan is that Garleans can't channel aether at all, so theoretically they'd be weaker in combat than most eorzeans. Maybe that's why the pureblooded garleans you see are all buff dudes. GOTTA COMPENSATE.

[FreelanceWizard]

At the risk of further derailing the thread...

 

This is not mean to derail but... just because lore says that Keepers are Matriarchal does not mean that Seekers are Patriarchal.

 

I believe the stance that Seekers are patriarchal comes several dev posts (excluding the whole Drake tribe thing), but most directly from the naming conventions post, which says: "Unlike the Seekers of the Sun, the Keepers of the Moon is a highly matriarchal society(...)" (emphasis mine). There's a fair amount of other dev post evidence as well (Seeker females follow a male to new territories or who can win new territory for the tribe, Seeker females use their father's name as their surname, etc.).

 

Of course, with the way the Seeker lore is written with regards to territories, one can pretty much write one's territory however works best for the character.

[Melkire]

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

 

The fact remains that Lalafells and Roe's are shown to be roughly equal physically speaking. Otherwise no one would ever make a lalafell a brass blade, and papashan wouldn't be the hero of the sultansworn. So clearly a person can be roughly on par with someone 4 to 5 times their height and bodymass.

 

So either A: Roe's have the worst muscle density ever, and lalafells have the best.

 

Or B: Physical musculature is only a part of strength, and everyone, even fighters use aether to reinforce their actions.

 

I think option B is more plausible. Not everyone may be aware they're doing it, but they probably are.

 

The only flaw in this plan is that Garleans can't channel aether at all, so theoretically they'd be weaker in combat than most eorzeans. Maybe that's why the pureblooded garleans you see are all buff dudes. GOTTA COMPENSATE.

 

Garleans also get by due to their tech. Their overreliance on such likely stems from their inability (or poor ability, I'm not familiar with their lore) to channel aether.

[Warren Castille]

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

 

The fact remains that Lalafells and Roe's are shown to be roughly equal physically speaking. Otherwise no one would ever make a lalafell a brass blade, and papashan wouldn't be the hero of the sultansworn. So clearly a person can be roughly on par with someone 4 to 5 times their height and bodymass.

 

So either A: Roe's have the worst muscle density ever, and lalafells have the best.

 

Or B: Physical musculature is only a part of strength, and everyone, even fighters use aether to reinforce their actions.

 

I think option B is more plausible. Not everyone may be aware they're doing it, but they probably are.

 

The only flaw in this plan is that Garleans can't channel aether at all, so theoretically they'd be weaker in combat than most eorzeans. Maybe that's why the pureblooded garleans you see are all buff dudes. GOTTA COMPENSATE.

 

There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.

 

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

[Melkire]

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

 

What is the Echo mechanic? I'll take Things Melkire Hates for $1000, Alex.

[Naunet]

There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.

 

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

 

This has strayed so far from the OP, but... I agree with this post so much.

[111]

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

 

The fact remains that Lalafells and Roe's are shown to be roughly equal physically speaking. Otherwise no one would ever make a lalafell a brass blade, and papashan wouldn't be the hero of the sultansworn. So clearly a person can be roughly on par with someone 4 to 5 times their height and bodymass.

 

So either A: Roe's have the worst muscle density ever, and lalafells have the best.

 

Or B: Physical musculature is only a part of strength, and everyone, even fighters use aether to reinforce their actions.

 

I think option B is more plausible. Not everyone may be aware they're doing it, but they probably are.

 

The only flaw in this plan is that Garleans can't channel aether at all, so theoretically they'd be weaker in combat than most eorzeans. Maybe that's why the pureblooded garleans you see are all buff dudes. GOTTA COMPENSATE.

 

There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.

 

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

 

The problem is that there is no way someone with that body size could do the things they're supposed to do. Also People seem to think smaller = faster, but in reality it's the opposite. More strength means more speed.

 

Also it's not really a cop out, the physical training people do probably helps their bodies use it. I keep going back to dragon ball analogies. Goku does all the training as a kid, but never gets stronger in any physically determinable sense. No one does, they always look the same. But the training makes them better able to use their ki.

 

FFXIV is a dragonball type world, where your physical strength is just the baseboard, and you can train above and beyond what your body should physically be able to do. In dragonball the reason is energy and crap, in FFXIV it's aether.

 

So no lalafells aren't born as strong as Roes, but they can work hard and eventually be as strong as one. Think of ather powers like muscles that can be built upon once your body already has all the muscles it's going to get.

[Zyrusticae]

Well, you know. It can be both. With aether allowing people to make up for their shortcomings, while also allowing people to put emphasis on their already-great strengths. Perhaps size is a deterrent when it comes to fine control (actually, I know this for a fact to be true when it comes to motor control) and hence Lalafell (and Miqo'te to a lesser extent) have a natural advantage here, while Roegadyn and Highlanders have to put forth a little bit more effort to do the same.

 

Either way, aether is a thing, and I still posit it is one of the reasons (if not THE reason) gender equality is a thing in Eorzea. Without it, well, you'd hear no end to the debates about female physical strength and blah blah blah, you know the drill.

 

Garleans also get by due to their tech. Their overreliance on such likely stems from their inability (or poor ability, I'm not familiar with their lore) to channel aether.

It's less that they lack the ability (because all living things have at least some aether) and more that their homeland being so dearth of aether means they don't really have any opportunity to practice at it.

 

But yeah, Garleans are pretty weak without their technology to back them up. Good for them, then, that their technology is effectively decades ahead of everyone else's (Garlond Ironworks aside).

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Well, you know. It can be both. With aether allowing people to make up for their shortcomings, while also allowing people to put emphasis on their already-great strengths. Perhaps size is a deterrent when it comes to fine control (actually, I know this for a fact to be true when it comes to motor control) and hence Lalafell (and Miqo'te to a lesser extent) have a natural advantage here, while Roegadyn and Highlanders have to put forth a little bit more effort to do the same.

 

Either way, aether is a thing, and I still posit it is one of the reasons (if not THE reason) gender equality is a thing in Eorzea. Without it, well, you'd hear no end to the debates about female physical strength and blah blah blah, you know the drill.

 

Garleans also get by due to their tech. Their overreliance on such likely stems from their inability (or poor ability, I'm not familiar with their lore) to channel aether.

It's less that they lack the ability (because all living things have at least some aether) and more that their homeland being so dearth of aether means they don't really have any opportunity to practice at it.

 

But yeah, Garleans are pretty weak without their technology to back them up. Good for them, then, that their technology is effectively decades ahead of everyone else's (Garlond Ironworks aside).

 

I kinda see the Garleans as having just as much aether as any other hyur, but that they lack the ability to consciously use it. That's why in terms of abilities, they shy away from magic (one could say they have no aether reserves), but they certainly are physically weak. It just so happens that their magitek gadgets make up for the difference in their combat styles. 

 

I'd have expected Garleans to have slightly more defined gender roles in this sense. If we judge based off of the regular enemies, and named characters, we really only have a single Garlean female with power, with higher/equal ranking men. And all of the "regular" Garlean soldiers have always appeared to be male models and have male voices. But then, maybe they're just sending a male-only army to Eorzea. We don't have enough lore on them.

[111]

I kinda see the Garleans as having just as much aether as any other hyur, but that they lack the ability to consciously use it. That's why in terms of abilities, they shy away from magic (one could say they have no aether reserves), but they certainly are physically weak. It just so happens that their magitek gadgets make up for the difference in their combat styles. 

 

I'd have expected Garleans to have slightly more defined gender roles in this sense. If we judge based off of the regular enemies, and named characters, we really only have a single Garlean female with power, with higher/equal ranking men. And all of the "regular" Garlean soldiers have always appeared to be male models and have male voices. But then, maybe they're just sending a male-only army to Eorzea. We don't have enough lore on them.

 

This is a really interesting point, and it ties into what Zyrusticae said. Why are all the garleans but one male? I can't think we can just blame developer laziness, since every other fighting organization in Eorzea has a good mix of men and women. It seems likely it's a conscious choice then. If so, then Merc might be right, if a society had no ability to channel aether, odds are they would develop in a patriarchical, men in charge way. That is the way the vast majority of civilizations have developed in our own world. Now that Garlemald has expanded, they might have adopted the gender roles they've traditionally used for their empire. So except in rare cases, they only send men to fight in wars.

 

In Eorzea, if we assume Aether can allow one to make up for certain physical aspects, like males generally being taller and having more muscle mass, Not to mention that a thaumaturge or conjurer would be extremely powerful regardgless of gender. We can see how an egalitarian society might form.

 

If the developers really did go that far in their lore and world building it would be pretty cool.

[Naunet]

FFXIV is a dragonball type world

 

I can buy this. It has an explanation behind it that's more than just "lol cuz magicz".

[TheLastCandle]

Well, there are two ways of looking at it.

 

The fact remains that Lalafells and Roe's are shown to be roughly equal physically speaking. Otherwise no one would ever make a lalafell a brass blade, and papashan wouldn't be the hero of the sultansworn. So clearly a person can be roughly on par with someone 4 to 5 times their height and bodymass.

 

So either A: Roe's have the worst muscle density ever, and lalafells have the best.

 

Or B: Physical musculature is only a part of strength, and everyone, even fighters use aether to reinforce their actions.

 

I think option B is more plausible. Not everyone may be aware they're doing it, but they probably are.

 

The only flaw in this plan is that Garleans can't channel aether at all, so theoretically they'd be weaker in combat than most eorzeans. Maybe that's why the pureblooded garleans you see are all buff dudes. GOTTA COMPENSATE.

 

There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.

 

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

QFT. Would read again.

[Zyrusticae]

QFT. Would read again.

*cough*Didn't read the thread*coughcough*

[TheLastCandle]

QFT. Would read again.

*cough*Didn't read the thread*coughcough*

No, I read it. I think there's some merit in the notion of aether being able to be used like ki for all intents and purposes, and I think there is some precedent for it in the Monks' use of chi and that being an internal aether reserve.  I just.. really think there is such a thing as overthinking when it comes to game mechanics vs. lore, especially when it comes to things like the physical strength of a Lalafell vs. that of a Highlander.

 

Honestly, I'd challenge anyone to find a video game RPG that meaningfully restricts a character's physical ability based on size or gender. I can promise it'll be an extremely short list. Even in Lord of the Rings Online, a fairly low-magic world compared to most game settings, you can be an extremely effective Hobbit Guardian tank. It's simply because they want players to feel that they're performing their role to good effect regardless of the race they chose. And there's nothing wrong with that. There's no need to try to marry every single game mechanic to some aspect of the lore. Sometimes it simply comes down to creating a "fair" playing field, and more often than not, visual effects are just that. That's just my opinion, though.

[Zyrusticae]

See, in my own not-so-humble opinion, going the 'small = agile' route is as much if not more of a cop-out (especially as, as Natalie mentioned, size does not actually = speed) and still doesn't explain the particular extreme case of Lalafel warriors, where such an explanation is completely irrelevant. Given that these things exist and are quite relevant in the universe, it follows that there must be something resembling a plausible in-universe explanation for it all.

 

Furthermore, trying too hard to separate game mechanics from the game universe results in mechanical dissonance with the game world, and we really, really don't want that. There's good reason why aether has inextricably been linked to the game's death mechanics (i.e. warriors of light don't return to the aetheric realm when they die thanks to Hydaelyn's blessing, instead returning to their home anchor point) rather than simply being handwaved as a game mechanic.

 

Mind you, there are definitely some things I just accept as part of the game mechanics, like most of a player character's ability being tied directly to gear rather than internal ability, but that can be explained away as an abstraction for the sake of progression mechanics, since your character would logically be getting stronger after facing ever more implacable foes. Gear serves as a useful stand-in for this since you can switch out pieces to change your stat makeup for different scenarios, something a more permanent progression option would not allow.

 

But Lalafel warriors still exist. And you have to be able to explain that in some way other than "oh, you know, they're just harder to hit", which of course doesn't explain anything since they'd still be tiny little people hitting as hard with an axe as a freakin' Roegadyn.

[Warren Castille]

So no lalafells aren't born as strong as Roes, but they can work hard and eventually be as strong as one. Think of ather powers like muscles that can be built upon once your body already has all the muscles it's going to get.

 

Good, was hoping someone would bring this up.

 

So Lala A starts with a strength score of 10. Roe B starts with a strength scored of 18. Lala spends all his time training his aether and eventually becomes STR18 just like the Roe.

 

...what happens when the Roe trains?