Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages"

[Knight Kat]

Then again, I think some of you are referring to combat in controlled environments like the Grindstone where weapons are blunted or peace-bound. When the advantage of weapon effectiveness and lethality is removed, strength and size does become a bigger factor. That is why MMA and Boxing have weight divisions.

 

Just to clarify, weapons aren't blunted at the Grindstone. We keep healers on stand-by to stop people from being killed, and the only rules are no killing and no magic. There's still plenty of blood spilled, you're just not allowed to try and decapitate someone.

 

I apologize. Maybe that is a change since I last watched the grindstone quite awhile ago, or I am remembering incorrectly because I thought it use to be that way.

 

Regardless, it is still a controlled environment where opponents would have to hold back to prevent killing blows. In such an environment, things like strength might play a bigger factor while weapons play a little less of a factor.

 

For example, if my character is not allowed to drive a spear into her opponent's neck, heart or skull, she has less options and opportunities to take her opponent down quickly before said opponent could use something like brute force on her.

[Gegenji]

Regardless, it is still a controlled environment where opponents would have to hold back to prevent killing blows. In such an environment, things like strength might play a bigger factor while weapons play a little less of a factor.

 

For example, if my character is not allowed to drive a spear into her opponent's neck, heart or skull, she has less options and opportunities to take her opponent down quickly before said opponent could use something like brute force on her.

 

Alternately, it's also a great place to try to learn how to fight in a situation where you need to subdue rather than kill, to disarm instead of dismember. Which could be another situation where someone who's well-honed in the art of battle might have issues. I've seen a couple cases in a couple fights where the attacker pulled short rather than landing a blow for fear of doing TOO MUCH damage. Being really strong has its drawbacks too.

 

That's basically the reasoning I have for Chachan to attend. To learn how to fight people of all different styles and, more importantly, learn how to defeat them without killing them. He's still the little naive dork who wants to save everyone, after all.

[Zyrusticae]

 

This post is personal opinion and not how I expect or how people should Create/RP powerful characters. (This is added so I don’t have to say ‘in my opinion’ every other line.)

 

First of all, there is nothing wrong with making a powerful character what so ever. The character should be more than their “power level” (snort). The strength of a character should be vehicle to encourage varied and increased Role-play. Also, weaknesses should not be given to ‘balance out the character in combat.’ Weaknesses should be given round out the character in general and should be organic to how you want the character to be. Where the ‘balance’ comes into play it not the mathematical way the character can be defeated, but it should come from the way the characters is Role-played, the situations they get involved in, and how they deal with said situations.

I am going to use my own character for example.

 

Grave Shadow is a very powerful character, but most folks would not even know that. He rarely takes center stage if he gets into combat with other folks. He does not come off as godly. He rarely even gets into fights to demonstrate his ‘power.’

 

There is so much more a powerful character can do than step into a fight with an “I’m here bitches” and promptly critical hit on everyone in his way, but since this thread seems to be about combat I will start with that. In a Role-play event, (say something plot related and not Grindstone) where there are two sides of more than one PC or NPC on either side, every character deserves a chance in the spotlight. A powerful character really does not to be in that spotlight to be considered ‘powerful.’

 

In the case of Grave, if he does get into a combat situation with other individuals on his side, I tend to keep him role to a support role rather than exploding faces. His help allows other individuals to have their moment to shine and it does not make him weak or less powerful if he actually does little in terms of smashing. The other thing is, Grave rarely gets into combat because he chooses his fights and not all of them need his presence, but I will get to that later. If he gets in a one on one fight, that is a different beast all together. If it is an NPC, for case of the storyline you probably have the end of the fight already all planned out. If it is against a player, if you are using dice you can make the low rolls represent bad luck as folks have mentioned or other factors that would cause a powerful character to bumble. If you are not using dice, hopefully an OOC dialogue is also open otherwise it may not end well… or ever end.

 

On the topic of Realism, “Your character brought down a meteor on the last rp to save our asses why doesn’t he do that all the time.” The age old story sin of a character doing something amazing in once scene but for some reason cannot do it again in the next.  An easy excuse is being tired or aether drained however for a powerful character this is where you can round out the character and plug in some interesting aspects that go beyond combat.

 

Grave does not get into every possible fight he could. This is partly so everyone gets a turn to Role-play stuff, and he also knows that not every fight needs his attention. This part is a bit more tailored to the character than in general for powerful characters, but he does not get involved all the time because he knows other people need to grow, need to make mistakes, and honestly need to suffer to be able to strengthen themselves. Then he also has his own dangers if he uses too much aether, and becomes too known. This is a plot limitation of a powerful character, consequences of things (NPC or not) if he ends up making too big of waves in the leylines. Grave basically belonged to a cult for a good thirtyish years of which despite him being a powerful character, it is filled with NPCS on par with him or far greater which would remind him of that if he does too much. Hence why as a powerful character, he will never get “we gots a problem turn on the Grave signal.”

 

“Weaknesses” to round out a character really do not have to be all about combat. Your character hopefully does more than run into battle or pick fights. They are entities with personality quirks, physical limitations, and even the occasional flat out stupidities.  Perfection in training does not make your character a Mary Sue, nor does perfection in training mean your character cannot be defeated. Unless your character spends every waking moment in a fight, flaws in combat style are not going to be what people see.

 

Grave has a few personality quirks that prevent him from doing things, but a big thing that affects both combat and out of combat is that he absolutely cannot heal folks in the usual way. Nature refuses to allow him to channel its power to mend flesh, and arrays designed to heal break down as he tries to apply aether to him. (And fairies just don’t like him) This is a major character plot thing which I will not go into detail, but when it involves physical damage to someone he is as helpless someone who just knows first aid. This is something that bothers him greatly, but he cannot do anything about it. Another aspect is that he is a bit withdrawn from things so often when he could up he just ends up not helping either because he does not know what is going on or feels his help will cause more harm than good. Neither of those are mathematical ways to defeat him, but still round him off somewhat.

 

What makes a powerful character… powerful is hardly how undefeatable he is. If the character is created with only combat prowess in mind or only role-played in his combat state, he ceases to be a character and more of just a tool. Powerful characters are only powerful or characters if they can relay that strength and relay their flaws inside and outside of combat without being the spotlight whenever they are present. That is actual realism even if your character can summon all three primal at once while balancing a lance on his nose. To create a character with mathematical way to defeat them for sake of being balanced robs them of depth and character and harkens back to video game bosses that have just a pattern you learn to beat them. If everything in RP was balanced it would be very boring thus it becomes a matter of Role-play to make even unbelievably unfair differences in ‘skill and power’ seem irrelevant for a good time.

 

This post is so good that all I need to do is quote it and give it my thumbs up. :thumbsup:

 

Now, for my own contribution:

 

It's all too easy to fall into the trap of thinking about your character in terms of numbers or "balance", when what you really need to do is actually think of them as a character, as an individual, with their own quirks and nuances. Simply being skilled or powerful does not make your character a character, it just makes them a plot device. You need actual personality behind that character for them to be something more.

 

This is part of why I built an out into T'rahnu's character: she doesn't participate in any fights in which she doesn't have personal investment in (re: she gets paid or her pride is on the line), and if she deems the situation too threatening for her security she bugs the hell out. She is remarkably skilled and talented but that doesn't mean she has to try to show that off everywhere she goes, and furthermore, it doesn't grant her absolute personal security in every conceivable situation. It's just a thing, and a large part of her is really proud of that thing, but she refuses to allow any one aspect of herself to define her entire being as such.

 

I can imagine how someone who is both powerful and possesses a high-and-mighty attitude that predisposes them towards intervening in situations they have no personal investment in could be incredibly irritating, and for that reason I really suggest players avoid playing such characters. Yes, it is a legitimate personality type and, yes, such people could conceivably exist within the game world but this is one of those things where you must make a concession to your fellow players in the name of fair play. Unless the other parties consent to being pushed around OOCly, you've gotta give them some room to breath, y'know?

 

It's not so much a game of "balance" as much as it is a game of "give and take". Other players are looking to get something out of the experience, so it's only fair that you give back as much as you are given. It's not that your character has to have clearly outlined weaknesses so much as you need to build your character in such a way that they are not insufferably stealing the spotlight from everyone else. There are ways to do that without resorting to just weakening them overall, and it might even be better for everyone involved if you try to take such alternative routes.

 

...Heh, I'm pretty much just repeating what others have already said in this thread at this point. Ah, well. There it is, my 2c, take it or leave it.

[Warren Castille]

 

First of all, there is nothing wrong with making a powerful character what so ever. The character should be more than their “power level” (snort). The strength of a character should be vehicle to encourage varied and increased Role-play. Also, weaknesses should not be given to ‘balance out the character in combat.’ Weaknesses should be given round out the character in general and should be organic to how you want the character to be. Where the ‘balance’ comes into play it not the mathematical way the character can be defeated, but it should come from the way the characters is Role-played, the situations they get involved in, and how they deal with said situations.

 

 

Mark this day on your calendars, everyone. It's the first time Z and I have completely agreed on something and all I have to do is point at this paragraph.

[Harmonixer]

 

First of all, there is nothing wrong with making a powerful character what so ever. The character should be more than their “power level” (snort). The strength of a character should be vehicle to encourage varied and increased Role-play. Also, weaknesses should not be given to ‘balance out the character in combat.’ Weaknesses should be given round out the character in general and should be organic to how you want the character to be. Where the ‘balance’ comes into play it not the mathematical way the character can be defeated, but it should come from the way the characters is Role-played, the situations they get involved in, and how they deal with said situations.

 

 

Mark this day on your calendars, everyone. It's the first time Z and I have completely agreed on something and all I have to do is point at this paragraph.

 

It's like this wherever he goes, not to put him on blast. He's an incredibly vocal individual and while I like to sort of 'see things from all sides' even I have difficulty siding with a̶l̶o̶t̶ some of things he's said.

 

It's okay Z, I still think you're a cool guy.

 

So when it comes to making characters, I have very often said I make better villains than I do anything else. It's often requested and the old phrase of 'someone's got to do it'. However a lot of careful planning in involved whenever I've done it. There's the whole bits of communication, but we aren't focusing on that here. My so-called effectiveness lies in 'placement' and positioning of the characters.

 

More specifically, I play antagonists that file a very specific goal and focus on a very particular vice or thought process. Leaving it open to others to work around it. I like making counters to thing, but in interesting ways. That and sometimes crushing hero white knight #6000 is oh so satisfying when it's done 'fairly'. I provide plenty of options to overcome, but make it interesting.

 

By no means would I say I just play a carpet for people to walk on, but I've can honestly say I've only made -one- 'powerful' character. Which I've long since retired because he was just too much and he covers subjects that actually make me uncomfortable as a person. Like, he's done some vile shit. But what 'boss' character hasn't right?

 

In relation to that, I've tried to make an effort to have all of my characters follow this framework in some way. It tends to be more fun, and I like being somewhat of a vehicle for others, because it lets the RP take it somewhere that isn't completely planned out and can truly grow. Partners providing that is, there's only so much I can do, you know?

[Gegenji]

It's also a matter that even actors find playing the villain more fun than the hero. Heroes tend to be cut from the same cloth, especially in film. The nice guy, the good guy - Superman is a good example. It's only in the past, what, twenty years or so that the antihero and the grittier heroic types came to the fore? I don't know the specifics.

 

Meanwhile, villains can come from all walks. You can have your crazies, your power hungries, your "the world is diseased" types, so on and so forth. My personal favorite type of villain is the one that... you can kinda agree with. You don't approve at all with what they're doing, but you can totally see their reasoning for doing it.

 

Second is probably the one written so well that you find yourself hating them without even knowing it.

[Sounsyy]

My personal favorite type of villain is the one that... you can kinda agree with. You don't approve at all with what they're doing, but you can totally see their reasoning for doing it.

 

[Caspar]

I think this is a birdwalk, but my favorite villain is the one who is one solely by virtue of being on the 'losing side' of history. Though, I do like plain old crazies too, especially if they have a sympathetic or tragic reason for being a villain that doesn't do much to make them less hated.

 

On the note of power, I have been more or less flexible about it. The way I see it, if I'm playing my character as competent, losing constantly would damage what I've built up for her, but at the same time, she needs to lose crushingly once in a while in order to develop the way I intended. The idea isn't so much losing or winning in an rp fight because it's all fictional and you get nothing but entertainment from it. I just want to write a fun, engaging scene, and hopefully advance the development of both characters. I think most players too are fine with winning or losing if, like previously mentioned, you're not just grandstanding and minimizing their role in the scene.

 

This is something I often have to consider, since I do tend to play strong characters who are experts at something. I'm really fond of the cloistered prodigy type who was born with innate talent, but is lacking severely in other areas. It's an archetype I'm often pressured to play by others or want to play myself.

[Seriphyn]

Fantastic postings

 

Nothing much to add at this time other than I've gone through and read the postings, really good stuff. Reflecting, I have begun to look at Kale's martial weaknesses (a brand of hubris) as something naturally begotten of the character, not something purely for the sake of balancing.

[Branson Thorne]

If we really want to delve into this matter of trying to find a realistic balance between our characters then we should discuss what is or isn't possible in say a Rogedyn vs Lalafell (I'm sure I misspelled both of those.) because let's face it, a midget warrior who doesn't barely come to the shins of his opponent is not going to beat him. Their swords are the equivalent to a small pocket-knife, and their bows, given their small sizes would not hardly be capable of a killshot, much less even penetrating basic armor.

[LiveVoltage]

If we are being realistic, a Roe would crush a lalafell in martial combat easily unless the Lalafell was using Aether to fortify and enhance the physical qualities of their body.

 

Magic does play a roll in enhanced combat in the game and world lore. Magic can also be made into a realistic combat experience as well, despite how far fetched that sounds.

[Warren Castille]

It's come up before.

 

While not quite on the level of housing or White Mages, it's one of the contested things we all agree to disagree on. Mostly.

[Branson Thorne]

It's come up before.

 

While not quite on the level of housing or White Mages, it's one of the contested things we all agree to disagree on. Mostly.

 

Damn I missed that discussion!

[Gegenji]

It's come up before.

 

While not quite on the level of housing or White Mages, it's one of the contested things we all agree to disagree on. Mostly.

 

I had a feeling that would be linked the moment someone brought up Lalafighting.

 

Personally, I don't think it's quite as one-sided as one might think, and due to an aforementioned reason - an unknown in a combat situation - rather than a matter of physical strength. While soldiers and such may have been trained to fight opponents both larger than them (Amal'jaa, for example) and smaller (Lalafell, maybe irate Sylphs?), it's still going to be something that will likely throw someone off.

 

I mean, seriously, you're trying to fight a guy who's likely only coming up to your knee. You're going to have to greatly adjust your attack angles to hit them if they were just standing still, let alone darting around and making a nuisance of themselves. Misstep and you could find your momentum used against you as you stumble face-first down to their level. At which point a knife to the eye or something is going to hurt like hell no matter whose hand it's in.

[Branson Thorne]

I understand the agree to disagree comment because I'd argue that the roe would just punt them across the desert like a football

[Gegenji]

I understand the agree to disagree comment because I'd argue that the roe would just punt them across the desert like a football

 

Again, hitting a moving target that might not let said Roe make the kick. Not saying it isn't a valid tactic, but it's kinda like saying "My female character would beat a male character just by kicking them in the junk." :lol:

[Sounsyy]

let's face it, a midget warrior who doesn't barely come to the shins of his opponent is not going to beat him.

 

Borderlands Series does not agree with your assessment of short people.

 

 

 

 

[Branson Thorne]

I understand the agree to disagree comment because I'd argue that the roe would just punt them across the desert like a football

 

Again, hitting a moving target that might not let said Roe make the kick. Not saying it isn't a valid tactic, but it's kinda like saying "My female character would beat a male character just by kicking them in the junk." :lol:

Fair point, though I still believe that most often then not, in a Row setting, the odds are heavily against the Lalafell.

 

But then again, as we all know this isn't real life, it's fantasy. Our characters are only as deadly as we allow them to be.

 

Ignore me, I just like starting controversial discussions haha

[Gegenji]

I understand the agree to disagree comment because I'd argue that the roe would just punt them across the desert like a football

 

Again, hitting a moving target that might not let said Roe make the kick. Not saying it isn't a valid tactic, but it's kinda like saying "My female character would beat a male character just by kicking them in the junk." :lol:

Fair point, though I still believe that most often then not, in a Row setting, the odds are heavily against the Lalafell.

 

But then again, as we all know this isn't real life, it's fantasy. Our characters are only as deadly as we allow them to be.

 

Ignore me, I just like starting controversial discussions haha

 

Nothing overtly controversial. Just highly debatable, given the setting and plenty of Lalafell serving in the military alongside the taller races.

 

Also, I'd have to refute the "Row" setting - if by that you mean a bar room brawl sort of situation. Those are usually violent, chaotic affairs. Who better to navigate them than someone small, wiry, fast, or any combination of the three compared to a large, burly bloke that has to force his way past people?

 

It also becomes a matter of skill in the character, which could extend to a match between any of the races. A Lalafell pirate well-rehearsed in the ways of the bar room brawl might have quite the advantage over a Roegadyn merchant who had one too many and crossed a line.

 

In a generic standoff between a Roe and Lala of equal skill, both equally rested, focused, and geared in a featureless combat ring with no tricks? Reach and general muscle mass would likely mean that the Roe could win due to his biological differences (as he very well might against a Midlander or Miqo'te, possibly a Highlander or Elezen as well). But how often are you going to see such a perfect setup like that?

 

Any number of differences could turn the fight in the other's favor - whether they be Lala, Miqo'te, Elezen, or Hyur. The Lala vs. Roe debate is just size difference taken to the extreme - the ultimate IG David and Goliath situation. Yet even in that story, wasn't it David that won?

[Melkire]

The Lala vs. Roe debate is just size difference taken to the extreme - the ultimate IG David and Goliath situation. Yet even in that story, wasn't it David that won?

 

Therein lies the irony of the tale. Depending on the translation, David either brained Goliath with a heavy stone from his sling, or else the thrown stone caught in Goliath's greave, causing him to stumble to his knees in time for David to cut off his head. Either way, size had nothing to do with it. The most-frequently cited example of a small man felling a large man ultimately fails to assert that the small man can win in a direct conflict - instead, he changes the game, disabling his foe from afar before finishing him.

[Gegenji]

The Lala vs. Roe debate is just size difference taken to the extreme - the ultimate IG David and Goliath situation. Yet even in that story, wasn't it David that won?

 

Therein lies the irony of the tale. Depending on the translation, David either brained Goliath with a heavy stone from his sling, or else the thrown stone caught in Goliath's greave, causing him to stumble to his knees in time for David to cut off his head. Either way, size had nothing to do with it. The most-frequently cited example of a small man felling a large man ultimately fails to assert that the small man can win in a direct conflict - instead, he changes the game, disabling his foe from afar before taking his head.

 

Right, but I'm using it for the purposes of a "small man beating a large man" in a general sense. Not just through direct conflict. Skullduggery, experience, weapon advantage, element of surprise, even just being more alert and awake can make for a difference. Which, as I will always point out, applies for any combatants, not just Lala vs. Roe.

 

I just cite "size difference" due to the misconception that being bigger and stronger means that you will win. Melkire's own fighting style would attest that, I would think, yes? :lol:

[Aduu Avagnar]

eh, even against a similar sized opponent, she still lost

[Aaron]

I wouldn't call Aaron op when it comes to combat. Sure he's acted like he could kill on a whim and back talks Bulky ass Roegadyn but meh

 

Tbh, most people just assume he's some badass fighter.

 

If you seen how he acts at the grindstone you'd see that's not the case.

 

I prefer freeform because it's more wild, im late to post I know but w/e

[ChewableMorphine]

I've always presented Flynt along a similar style, a boss fight, but like one of those hidden superbosses, ridiculously powerful (for comedy purposes, a la Godbert). He's more than capable of being defeated (and has been through a number of hilarious ways), but still puts most lore-friendly 'masters' to shame. I play him as if he were somebody like Elizabeth in Persona 3, bordering on the unbeatable, but not invincible, and very accepting of it.

 

So for even the types of supercharacters people like to RP, the key is to leave room for error. Otherwise, we like to call it Godmodding, say it with me now, loud and proud!

 

[align=center]Godmodding! [/align]

 

Have your complimentary trenchcoat and katana, your Mary Sue name tag is on the lapel, don't worry.

 

This has been a PSA, hugs and kisses from your least favorite secret agent.