Is this common for tanks?

[Leomoon]

So I have been leveling my healer to lvl 30 and I had to do dungeons of course and in one dungeon at lvl 28 I ran into a group where I noticed the tank had began taking large amounts of damage and I am not taking oh he drops to about 50% after I cast stone II for a while, no as soon as a fight with at lest a group of three his HP would drop at the start down to 45%. After a couple of pulls I checked his gear and he was a lvl 28 in lvl 20 gear (no not kidding all left gear was 20).

 

When I brought it up to are group both the DD defended the tank saying "Oh you just need a good weapon he is keeping agro!" and yet ow he did this was to spam Overpower while the ninja gave him extra TP nearly every fight. After a while I just dealt with it and around the second boss in the basement I said that I don't think the next one will go well with all the adds that spawn, and again the DD said it was fine because of his weapon (ignoring how fast his HP dropped in every fight) and then called me a keyboard warrior and told me to go off to reddit. No surprises I was right we whipped twice and with me healing a black mage and using Stone until my MP was drained we finished the encounter by the skin of are teeth.

 

So is it common for Tank to just have really shitty gear besides there weapon? When I leveled tank I made sure all my gear was topped out for my level so the healer would not have to worry too much on healing me, this guy didn't even have flash and I was chastised for that as well. I have leveled both Tanks and never seen this before I don't do lvl 50 content for my tanks but this just out right confused me on both the Tank and the defense the DD were doing on this guy.

[Warren Castille]

So I have been leveling my tank to lvl 30 and I had to do dungeons of course and in one dungeon at lvl 28 I ran into a group where I noticed the healer had began letting me take large amounts of damage and I am not taking oh I drop to about 50% after they cast stone II for a while, no as soon as a fight with at lest a group of three my HP would drop at the start down to 45%. After a couple of pulls I checked his gear and he was a lvl 28 in lvl 20 gear (no not kidding all left gear was 20).

 

When I brought it up to are group both the DD defended the healer saying "Oh you just need a good weapon you are still alive!" and yet ow he did this was to spam Cure. After a while I just dealt with it and around the second boss in the basement I said that I don't think the next one will go well with all the adds that spawn, and again the DD said it was fine because of his weapon (ignoring how fast my HP dropped in every fight) and then called me a keyboard warrior and told me to go off to reddit. No surprises I was right we whipped twice and with me healing a black mage and using Stone until my MP was drained we finished the encounter by the skin of are teeth.

 

So is it common for Healer to just have really shitty gear besides there weapon? When I leveled healer I made sure all my gear was topped out for my level so the healer would not have to worry too much on surviving, this guy didn't even have swiftcast and I was chastised for that as well. I have leveled both healers and never seen this before I don't do lvl 50 content for my healers but this just out right confused me on both the healer and the defense the DD were doing on this guy.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

It's more the player than the class.

 

I have a dirty habit of having 3-4 sets of "extra" gear at my level because I like to spiritbond while running leves/fates/dungeons. It helps being able to craft everything.

 

How many mobs the tank pulled and his use a cooldowns could have effected things too. It's not very uncommon for someone to have gear ~10 levels below the dungeon if it's their first time playing. But when stuff like that happens, the entire party needs to go slow.

 

...I do believe the tanks's weapon (especially for WAR) is the biggest factor for keeping enmity. ...but a dead tank can't tank so...

[Edda]

Short answer: Yes.

 

Long answer: The gear someone has is dependent on how conscientious the player is. If someone is speed-leveling an alt class (common at this point in the game), or is simply a new player, it is not rare to encounter someone with gear that is far below their level. Not everyone will take the steps they should to ensure that they don't have a rough time as they level. For instance, I always updated my gear every 5 levels when I was leveling other classes. Not everyone will do this and you will unfortunately be stuck running Cutter's Cry with people in level 15 gear.

 

It can be annoying, but just think of it as T13 practice. If you were able to keep him up, that says more about you than his uh... experimental play style. Remember: You as the healer are always right. Don't listen to those naughty DPS scrubs!

[K'nahli]

I am not entirely sure about what level my gear was, I typically upgraded gear as was offered to me through MSQs, but level 20 gear at a level 28 dungeon doesn't sound too bad to me(?) Maybe I am mistaken though.

 

-snip-

 

I see what you were going for here, but without some actual and legitimate contribution of your own, your post just comes off as rude and dismissive of the OP's concerns. Please avoid that in the future.

[Melkire]

A few things I'd like to cover:

 

1. You probably were sorted into the instance with a pre-arranged party of three. That or you were dealt malcontents.

 

2. If your tank is having issues staying alive for whatever reason (be it poor play or poor gear), you should not be DPSing as a healer, especially not to the point where you are running out of mana. An exception is made if your damage dealers are the ones playing poorly by not killing things fast enough to alleviate pressure on you and the tank.

 

3. Tanks do have weird itemization at times before they hit level 50. This is particularly noticeable when wearing lower level gear will give you more defensive stats overall (I mean PhysDef and MagicDef, not Parry) than wearing a higher piece of gear that takes multiple slots (any variant on Heavy Iron, for example). The people you ran with were correct, to an extent, in saying that a MRD/WAR's weapon damage is most important since it is the key factor in whether they can hold aggro provided they know how to play their class.

 

4. MRD defensive cooldowns are sparse pre-WAR, and the ones they get suck (see: Foresight). This is even worse if they haven't cross-classed for skills like Awareness or Second Wind or Featherfoot (all of which are "meh" when cross-classed anyway). WAR only starts getting good defensive CDs once they hit 35, which is when they receive Inner Beast.

 

5. It sounds like the MRD in question hadn't leveled GLA for cross-classing Flash, which isn't necessary but does help alleviate TP concerns.

[Edda]

I am not entirely sure about what level my gear was, I typically upgraded gear as was offered to me through MSQs, but level 20 gear at a level 28 dungeon doesn't sound too bad to me(?) Maybe I am mistaken though.

If they were whites/NQ, it's a pretty big gap. If they were dungeon pinks/greens, it's not as big of a deal. Anything more than 10 levels you will start to notice extreme differences in ability, no matter how good each player is.

[K'nahli]

I am not entirely sure about what level my gear was, I typically upgraded gear as was offered to me through MSQs, but level 20 gear at a level 28 dungeon doesn't sound too bad to me(?) Maybe I am mistaken though.

If they were whites/NQ, it's a pretty big gap. If they were dungeon pinks/greens, it's not as big of a deal. Anything more than 10 levels you will start to notice extreme differences in ability, no matter how good each player is.

 

Mmn.... most likely had at least 1-2 dungeon drops I guess. I'm still not entirely sure either way but I do remember that I would sometimes go for a number of levels before a new upgrade showed up. Having said that, I've levelled a number of character so I could be thinking of non-tanks either.

 

Ah, ignore my post then, OP!

[Nebbs]

Well I have noticed the same, some tanks take lots some take little.

 

So as the healer just make sure you heal, I tend to not go DPS until I get a feel for the tank. In fact you could adopt the same approach, you just heal.. let the nutters deal with aggro and taking damage. let the dps die and make sure the Healer and Tank live.

 

Not ideal but it is come as you are PuG territory. (PUG Life)

[Nako Vesh]

If a tank wants to make giant pulls, they need to have the gear to back it up and know when to cycle CDs. Bottom line. I didn't start speed running Experts until I had the gear to safely do so.

[Erik Mynhier]

Back when I leveled I found up to date gear was helpful but you could get by without it, especially after Shield Oath and Defiance. With those you could relax, without better gear made the difference with both defense and arggo generation.

[Aife]

I ran a level 50 dungeon with a tank in Strength gear instead of Vit last night. TThere wasn't a chance in hell I could help out with dps in that run. Tanking gear doesn't always make sense. I do agree as a tank your gear should be up to date because if the tank dies, whole parties can wipe. All I can in situations like that is to focus on healing the tank instead of dps. Healing is your first priority as a healer anyroad.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I ran a level 50 dungeon with a tank in Strength gear instead of Vit last night. TThere wasn't a chance in hell I could help out with dps in that run. Tanking gear doesn't always make sense. I do agree as a tank your gear should be up to date because if the tank dies, whole parties can wipe. All I can in situations like that is to focus on healing the tank instead of dps. Healing is your first priority as a healer anyroad.

 

Some raid groups will deck out their tanks in STR gear. This should only really be being done when the tank is perfectly geared with best-in-slot stuff.

 

My condolences if it was a new tank should thought it was the "correct" gear because of some advice he read.

[Gegenji]

Strength GEAR or Strength accessories? Because having STR stuff right side is totally feasible. I actually leveled tanks with the bonus points in STR and using STR accessories and did... pretty well, actually. But you definitely need to be comfortable tanking, since you don't have as much HP wiggle-room. And the things that just hit hard and ignore mitigation (Cloud of Darkness, for example) are a lot more dangerous.

[K'nahli]

I have strength accessories on my Paladin for when I was actively PvP'ing. I had occasionally done runs without realising I had forgotten to switch back.

[Enla]

As a healer I do expect other healers to occasionally add the the DPS, even if it only means putting down an Aero or an Aero 2 and keeping one of them up as much as possible during the fight. With that said however, healing does take priority and if the tank can't take any hits then your first job is to heal and leave the DPS to someone else. Stone is a good way to run out of mana in those sort of situations and should be stopped unless the fight mechanics require a DPS check you don't think the group is going to meet.

 

That said, sometimes there are tanks out there who think it's fun to put on horrible gear 'for the challenge' or even bots who sneak by. (Oh dear god, Toto-Rak with a bot for a tank is BRUTAL.) Just have to roll with the punches, and if it gets too bad it's usually best to just leave.

[C'kayah Polaali]

If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault. If the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault.

 

It's an amusing phrase, and it's not entirely true (especially in endgame content), but it's pretty much spot on for a level 28 dungeon. Focus on healing the tank, and if something kills you (i.e.: the tank can't keep aggro on everything), it's the tank's fault.

 

You didn't mention if the tank was a gladiator or marauder. Warriors (and to a lesser degree marauders) tend to have lower resists, and ultimately make up for it by having lots of HP. At lower levels, though, you'll often see them losing huge chunks of HP, and you'll have to focus more on healing them.

 

One last tip: As a healer, I do spend time doing damage in dungeons, but I don't sweat it if I can't. It's far more important to have enough MP to heal than it is to add a little bit of damage. When I do cast damage spells, I focus on spells with lower MP costs and alternate effects. Stone, for instance, is better than Stone II in a dungeon because it costs less MP and it adds a heavy effect, even though it does less damage.

[Melkire]

You didn't mention if the tank was a gladiator or marauder.

 

OP specifically mentioned Overpower.

[Harmonixer]

Something that somewhat unsettles me about healers that I've encountered on this game is that they take the time to DPS at all whenever a tank is taking any noticeable amount of damage.

 

Perhaps I'm from a different school of thought, but I'm a firm believer in pre-casting spells to prepare for oncoming damage when I know a large attack is coming. It is also true that any one in a tank role should be using their active mitigation skills to help this, but I still cannot find myself wanting to defend a WHM insists on spamming Holy in the cleave zones (facing away or not, sometimes they get clipped) and refusing to cast anything other than the occasional Medica.

 

For OP's particular situation, I think you'll be encountering a fair amount of people that generally assume that a dungeon doesn't mean 'hey, group activity! I may be responsible for things' and more of a 'I hope everyone here will carry me so I may collect my exp/loot/rewards and I'll be able to do as little as possible!'. Often, if you are not in the company of friends, expect to do twice the work you normally do and mental preparation is required for this.

 

I consider myself a career tank in MMOs. I've done it in many, many forms and find it to be my most comfortable spot. Most of the time I make the extra effort for myself to have the right gear, know the fights before hand and keep as many tools available to myself as possible as a 'just in case' measure. I played healers in all of these titles to further understand what I was subjecting people to when I did tank and discovered quite quickly that very few people care about others in PUGs. In this game, it hasn't nearly been as bad as I've seen (Save for a few CT runs and a WoD here or there). So I consider myself quite fortunate.

 

tl;dr

 

If you aren't running with friends,expect the worst and do whatever you can to prepare yourself for it.

[Darien Cadell]

I've seen an amazingly geared tank take a metric buttload of damage where crappier geared tanks have held up like boulders. I have theories as to why this happened but at the time I was busy picking my jaw up off the floor. I didn't notice if they had a lot of STR gear on at the time. Now I wonder.

 

As for levelling on the way up, even if your gear is getting downleveled, I've noticed some instances just seem to be rougher than others in terms of how much damage is going out. So add that to letting gear slack a bit, and it's gonna feel like an elephant stampede.

[Branson Thorne]

Oh yes it's very common, they are the only class that enters an instance with underdeveloped gear.....THE ONLY CLASS MAN IM TELLING YA!

 

Not.

[Melkire]

I've seen an amazingly geared tank take a metric buttload of damage where crappier geared tanks have held up like boulders. I have theories as to why this happened but at the time I was busy picking my jaw up off the floor. I didn't notice if they had a lot of STR gear on at the time. Now I wonder.

 

I was spiritbonding as WAR in Castrum last night wearing nothing but Gathering/Crafting gear on the left, i120/i130 STR and VIT accessories on the right, and a level 49 Labrys or something.

 

My fellow tank was a more-than-properly-geared-for-the-instance PLD with Curtana Zenith, an i90 weapon.

 

I was stealing/holding hate against him and a 5.7k hp WHM pocket healer. I was surviving despite a 4500hp-after-Defiance health pool and a 51 level disadvantage in weapon damage, partly thanks to said healer but mainly due to good cooldown usage (hello, Holmgang <3).

 

Gear matters, but player skill matters more and difference in player skill, imo, can make up for some serious gear disparity.

 

tl;dr: Know how to play your class.

[Sounsyy]

At that low level (28), the only stat that really matters for mitigation is Defense and Magic Defense, which only come by equipping higher Item Level gear or gear of increased rarity, like pink or green items, which typically have a better defensive rating if they're for tanks specifically. The main hand weapon is important for maintaining hate levels, yes, but does absolutely nothing for mitigation.

 

That said, many tanks/players will opt not to gear themselves out with the latest gear set, for any number of reasons, such as not wanting to spend money on a set they'll only be using for an hour if they're burning levels. Many hold out for the dungeon pink/green items. In the next dungeon after Haukke, Brayflox Longstop actually drops some very good tank gear. That player may be holding out for that. Is it in their own best interest or in the interest of their healer's sanity? Not really, but not everyone is looking to make life easier on folks.

 

At later levels, undergearing or alternative gear options can be alleviated by effective Cooldown usage and a little bit of know-how. But at low levels, MRD in particular does not have many defensive options. Fortunately, at 30, they'll get Defiance which will give them a marginal HP buffer with a constant Healing Potency increase, making tanking and healing much easier for everyone involved.

 

 

As for STR vs VIT tanks, the biggest difference is playstyle. Gearing STR is actually far more efficient gearing for a tank (and also provides higher mitigation than VIT) but does require the tank to be on top of cooldowns, AoE avoidance, and in the case of WAR, self healing. It's not a style you can be complacent with and just 1-2-3 snooze repeat. Having full i130 VIT accessories versus STR is only a 1,957 HP difference anyways. And at i130... that's an incredibly negligible value. Especially considering the trade off is 115 STR, which provides greatly increased damage, enmity, self healing, and parry/block strength.

[Zyrusticae]

(and also provides higher mitigation than VIT)

Very marginally so, yes. I wish it were more substantial. It'd make my life a whole lot easier.

 

For the record, the difference is like 2% more parry damage reduction for 100 more Str, which is... not a lot, and it's not like you're parrying anywhere close to 100% of attacks anyway.

 

Doesn't matter tho, Str tank all the way here. Gotta have dat DPS. I find I have no problems tanking expert dungeons, and usually, if I die, it's because I made a mistake or the healer had issues. We have so many mitigation tools that, yeah, that HP buffer is basically completely unnecessary for the majority of content. Only in Coil, and even then, only as the MT would I say you should be running with VIT accessories and assigned stats.

 

It's worth noting that the healer should be able to keep up with the damage, and if they cannot, a 1.3-2k HP buffer will not save you. You'll die just because the healer can't keep up with the attrition. This rarely happens, and if it does, it's usually because they are either woefully undergeared or are doing something very wrong. The only exception is when the boss is putting out an attack that takes out your entire HP bar in one go, or very nearly one go (to the point where they can kill you on the next auto), but then again, that's what Holmgang is for.

[Aife]

For those who asked it was a War in pretty much all Strength Gear. He had a few Vit items but I'd think in a high level dungeon situation he's switch back to Vit gear. Anyroad, I just stopped dpsing and focused on healing cause that's my job and personally I hate it when Healers dps and don't bother healing till I'm almost dead (I run paladin on occasion). It just would have made my life easier if a tank whose meant to take heaps of damage would wear gear to boost his vitality. 

To my credit he didn't die once but it was just harder to keep him alive.