Eorzean Aetheists and The Believability of Such Characters

[Dat Oni]

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So, a while back I had a thought about the possibility of the presence of a sort of "Aetheism" in Eorzea, forgot about it, and then had it come screaming back into my brain, today.

 

And the more I thought about it, the more bizarre it became. It turned out, in trying to answer the question about whether or not they existed, I always came to the question of whether or not they would even be believable in a setting like Hydaelyn. I hypothesized that, if there were Aetheists in Eorzea, they would be faced with constant evidence to the contrary, leading to a sort of "La~la~la~I can't hear you~" mantra chanting-esque behavior. In other words, they'd appear as nothing more than bad charicatures. 

 

What do you guys think about this? 

 

Are there examples of Aetheists in Eorzea? How proper of a representation do they give? Are they believable? If not, what would make them believable? And if they don't exist, is the concept just too bizarre for this setting to ever work? And other questions!

 

Have at it!

[Faye]

Atheism is pretty counter-intuitive to what we know about Eorzea (though I've noticed that hasn't stopped a plethora of people from trying to RP it). But it could be an attitude that may start shifting in the future. As we find out more and more curiosities about Primals, and the existence of Eikons, it only begs more questions than it answers. The Twelve could be nothing more than Primals, and in that respect could perhaps be considered "false gods," as the Imperials and Ascians are wont to call them.

[Aedan Marceaux]

Rather than flat out atheism, I've seen characters roleplayed (and have done so myself) where they just don't necessarily attribute what others may consider miracles to the various deities. In other words, a "they've never done anything for me, so why should I pray to/worship/care about them?" sort of attitude.

 

As has been stated, flat out disbelief in them (the deities) is a bit... silly.

[Faye]

Rather than flat out atheism, I've seen characters roleplayed (and have done so myself) where they just don't necessarily attribute what others may consider miracles to the various deities. In other words, a "they've never done anything for me, so why should I pray to/worship/care about them?" sort of attitude.

 

As has been stated, flat out disbelief in them (the deities) is a bit... silly.

 

This is pretty much how I approach the matter with Faye. Rather than denying their existence, she just doesn't necessarily worship or revere them.

[Roda]

I see the Garleans as the closest thing to atheists in FFXIV.

And that's really all I can say that isn't too spoilery. '3'

[Sounsyy]

Are there examples of Aetheists in Eorzea? How proper of a representation do they give? Are they believable? If not, what would make them believable? And if they don't exist, is the concept just too bizarre for this setting to ever work?

 

I can think of two examples of atheism in Eorzean lore:

 

1) Garleans - The obvious. The Twelve are only worshiped in Eorzea, not in the rest of the world. The Far East worships Elementals. The Garlean Empire forbids the worship of any deity or religion.

 

2) Erik - An Ala Mhigan scholar of aether and history. He seems pretty atheistic to me.

The monks and the Fist of Rhalgr are interesting in the same way as any other organized relgion - a sad' date=' pathetic, and humorous way.[/quote']

I confess I find great joy in studying the demise of a religion - and even greater joy in recounting it!

 

 

So they are out there. Though, likely not very common in Eorzea - land blessed by the gods. Y'know. But elsewhere in the world, probably more likely.

[V'aleera]

Being an athiest seems pretty difficult in a world full of godlike beings.

[Gone.]

There is a part towards the end of Heavensward where Midgardsormr mentions... well:

 

 

that the gods of mankind are nothing more than creations of their belief, akin to the very primals they ceaselessly wage war against.

 

 

Such knowledge would likely be unheard of amongst the common man, though.

[Seriphyn]

Eorzea needs an Enlightenment-style event for atheism to really exist as a concept with any traction, I reckon.

 

 

 

The Sultana's desire for a democratic republic of Ul'dah certainly might be the start of one.

 

[LiadansWhisper]

There is a part towards the end of Heavensward where Midgardsormr mentions... well:

 

 

that the gods of mankind are nothing more than creations of their belief, akin to the very primals they ceaselessly wage war against.

 

 

 

Such knowledge would likely be unheard of amongst the common man, though.

 

Except for the Crystal.

[Altitis Acquired]

Have you guys seen the movie "Constantine" with Keanu Reeves?

 

In that there's a scene where Constantine talks to the half-angel Gabriel, trying to bargain a way into Heaven (he is a suicide survivor which means he is doomed to go to Hell). There's a line perfectly describing how an "Aetheist", or rather, a non-believer could work in Eorzea.

 

Constantine asks what God wants and Gabriel says "The usual; self-sacrifice, belief...", to which Constantine says "I believe, for Christ's sake." where Gabriel responds "No, you know. There's a difference. You've seen it.".

 

Same could apply to "Aetheists" in Eorzea. They know about the Twelve and their existence. But they don't believe in them. They don't worship them. They might even think the world would be better without them. They are non-believers, as it were. They know, but they don't believe... if that makes sense.

[LiadansWhisper]

Have you guys seen the movie "Constantine" with Keanu Reeves?

 

In that there's a scene where Constantine talks to the half-angel Gabriel, trying to bargain a way into Heaven (he is a suicide survivor which means he is doomed to go to Hell). There's a line perfectly describing how an "Aetheist", or rather, a non-believer could work in Eorzea.

 

Constantine asks what God wants and Gabriel says "The usual; self-sacrifice, belief...", to which Constantine says "I believe, for Christ's sake." where Gabriel responds "No, you know. There's a difference. You've seen it.".

 

Same could apply to "Aetheists" in Eorzea. They know about the Twelve and their existence. But they don't believe in them. They don't worship them. They might even think the world would be better without them. They are non-believers, as it were. They know, but they don't believe... if that makes sense.

 

I'm going to sit on my hands and not type the rant that I want to type about the holes, contradictions, and terrible theology in the Constantine movie.  Because no one wants that.

 

Lack of belief in the face of irrefutable proof is almost as religious/ritualistic as belief itself.  Because you're refusing to believe something despite having irrefutable proof that it exists.

[Altitis Acquired]

Have you guys seen the movie "Constantine" with Keanu Reeves?

 

In that there's a scene where Constantine talks to the half-angel Gabriel, trying to bargain a way into Heaven (he is a suicide survivor which means he is doomed to go to Hell). There's a line perfectly describing how an "Aetheist", or rather, a non-believer could work in Eorzea.

 

Constantine asks what God wants and Gabriel says "The usual; self-sacrifice, belief...", to which Constantine says "I believe, for Christ's sake." where Gabriel responds "No, you know. There's a difference. You've seen it.".

 

Same could apply to "Aetheists" in Eorzea. They know about the Twelve and their existence. But they don't believe in them. They don't worship them. They might even think the world would be better without them. They are non-believers, as it were. They know, but they don't believe... if that makes sense.

 

I'm going to sit on my hands and not type the rant that I want to type about the holes, contradictions, and terrible theology in the Constantine movie.  Because no one wants that.

 

Lack of belief in the face of irrefutable proof is almost as religious/ritualistic as belief itself.  Because you're refusing to believe something despite having irrefutable proof that it exists.

 

The point isn't that he chooses to ignore the "fact" that he knows there is a God, that angels and demons exist etc., but rather that he doesn't have the faith in God. He isn't denying their existence, he just doesn't worship God. That's the point.

[Dat Oni]

Guys I swear to Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth, Nyarlathothep, Dagon, Mother Hydra, etc. that if you derail this thread there will be Ryleh to pay.

[Altitis Acquired]

Guys I swear to Cthulhu, Yog-Sothoth, Azathoth, Nyarlathothep, Dagon, Mother Hydra, etc. that if you derail this thread there will be Ryleh to pay.

 

That wasn't the intention. I just wanted to bring an example I thought fit perfectly with the whole "Aetheists in Eorzea" topic.

 

The point was, as said, they know about the deities and all that jazz, they just don't have faith in them and would rather be without them.

[Dravus]

You can present people with solid evidence and some of them will still deny that something is possible or that exceptions can be made. Therefore I don't find it unusual at all for there to be people within Eorzea who don't believe that higher beings actually exist.

 

Would it be a popular opinion? No. Would they need to keep it to themselves for fear of being persecuted/shunned for it? Most likely!

 

Furthermore Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. Sooner or later someone is going to go '...hold on, why aren't these divine beings actually intervening to stop innocent men, women and children dying horribly? Maybe they don't exist, they don't care or...they're made up!'

 

On top of that - and as already mentioned - there's the Garleans and their approach to religion to consider too.

[Altitis Acquired]

You can present people with solid evidence and some of them will still deny that something is possible or that exceptions can be made. Therefore I don't find it unusual at all for there to be people within Eorzea who don't believe that higher beings actually exist.

 

Would it be a popular opinion? No. Would they need to keep it to themselves for fear of being persecuted/shunned for it? Most likely!

 

Furthermore Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. Sooner or later someone is going to go '...hold on, why aren't these divine beings actually intervening to stop innocent men, women and children dying horribly? Maybe they don't exist, they don't care or...they're made up!'

 

On top of that - and as already mentioned - there's the Garleans and their approach to religion to consider too.

 

+1

<3

[LiadansWhisper]

Furthermore Eorzea isn't a nice place to live. Sooner or later someone is going to go '...hold on, why aren't these divine beings actually intervening to stop innocent men, women and children dying horribly? Maybe they don't exist, they don't care or...they're made up!'

 

We already know why they don't.

 

When the Twelve pulled away from Hydaelyn, they became mostly unable to directly interfere in what is happening in the world (though, interestingly, Liousoix supposedly made a bargain with Thaliak, iirc, that resulted in the Warrior of Light being transported through time to the point where ARR starts).  If they were to actually intervene directly (which is what Liousoix was trying to have happen when he attempted to bind Bahamut), it very well might kill Hydaelyn.  Because, yeah, it takes aether to do that.  A lot of aether.  More aether than Hydaelyn can afford to lose.

 

 

But if you watched the Flames of Truth video, you might notice that everything Phoenix was doing had symbols of the Twelve etched into it.  They appeared over and over again in his shields and attacks.  Maybe it was just his faith, but you could also take it as a powerful statement of his actions being backed by the Twelve from a distance.

 

 

P.S. @Vachir: That's not actually meant. But, I don't really want to go into detail here. If you want my thoughts on the subject, hit me up in PMs.

 

Edited to Add: I want to say that the way the story is told, it's implied that it's mankind's fault that the Twelve left in the first place. We were screwing everything up, and they were like, "The hell with you all, we're taking our toys and going home." And they've never been back. And it's our fault. D:

[Yssen]

I would have to say that the Garleans are probably NOT atheists. Atheists tend not to use words like "blasphemy" and "heresy." Do they not believe in The Twelve? Yes. Do they not believe in the godhood of Primals? Obviously. They do have a religion, though. Just not a religion we have many details on. Best guess would be that similar to Rome, they believe in the sanctity of the Imperial line, and perhaps by extension their government. That is just conjecture at this point, however. Still, they all talk a lot about "heresy" and "blasphemy" with when referring to Eorzeans and Primals and such. They clearly have some sort of organized dogma they adhere to.

[Kellach Woods]

Also, we speak as though the Twelve actually exist when, well...

 

A) None were there when the Twelve allegedly were on Eorzea, and even the various saints can't even be tied down to any historical fact. Hell...

 

 

When Thordain and his Knights Twelve call upon something to become primals, they do not even call upon Halone, but rather, the historical figures.

 

You'd think they'd go straight to the goddess, y'know.

 

Granted this may very well be a question of them thinking it'd be blasphemous, but still.

 

 

B) The Twelve are an Eorzean belief, that is not held worldwide - You'd think if it was a certainty that they exist, more people from outside would recognize that part of the theology.

 

Although quite frankly I think the definition of Atheism in fantasy should be twisted because most of the time there actually is an order of the universe that involves otherworldly, all-powerful beings. For example, we have Hydaelyn for the world of FFXIV.

 

Atheism would be rejection of all dogmas and power those beings have over life (recognizing that the otherworldly being exists if they have proof that they do, but that they have no incidence on life and whoever claims so is a charlatan) instead of disbelief. This'd enable us to have a definition that's closer to what the people of that world would experience while also removing the Garleans from the equation, who have their own dogma that they rigorously believe in.

 

I personally play Kell as a sort-of atheist, but it's more paganistic than atheistic when you analyze it a tiny bit beyond the surface. He recognizes that the Twelve are important to Eorzean life, but his own beliefs lie in the elements themselves and his people have all sorts of rituals based on those. That they chose to manifest as actual deities on Eorzea is their choice, and he respects that.

 

But he'll still say "Fire take my hand" as a swear. Even if "By Byregot's gut" is hilarious.

[Altitis Acquired]

@LiadansWhisper:

No, it's alright, I didn't mean to discuss the movie, I just took an example from it that I thought was fitting the topic. ^^

[Naunet]

My main RP character is possibly as close to an atheist as a common Eorzean could get. She used to be a very devout worshiper of Azeyma but saw the Calamity and subsequent fallout as signs that her goddess and any others didn't truly care about humanity, if they existed at all. Basically she lost her faith, though a part of her still wants to believe and still thinks they probably exist. She just doesn't think they care to involve themselves in the fates of Man.

[Ha'uruh Nunh]

One of my alts is a flat-out atheist; another one is something of an agnostic who thinks that if there are gods, they have abandoned the world.

 

I don't think there's "proof" of divine intervention available to the common folk when they know that primals ("gods"?) are killable. My atheist thinks primals and miracles are really just complex aetheric constructs. "All is magic" instead, basically.

[Xzenivar]

My character learned a belief system that looked at Primals and the Twelve as a whole pantheon, where each represents an aspect of humanity. He takes them figuratively as representatives of something. It's a belief system that's more on the spiritual side than religious, but he's still not a great proponent of it anyway. It's something left over from my 1.0 character's back history and where he came from.

 

What he does believe though, is that the only real god, if any, would be Hydalyn (I'm sure I spelled that wrong, please forgive). The world provides, shelters, teaches and punishes. If there's anything like a deity in the world, he would point to it being the world itself. After all, it does everything one would ascribe to a deity as far as he's concerned.

[Zelmanov]

I don't see the Garleans as much as Atheists more so than a culture of god killers. It is a lore very similar to the Char in Guild Wars. 

 

It is not so much they do not believe there are gods, so much as those gods are killable and the world is better off without them, that this world belongs to the kingdom of man.

 

 

given what we know about primals (Or what we don't know due to the whole wrinkle added via "true" Eikons as opposed to the Garlean version of the word) it could be an "Atheist" in Eorzea believes that while they are being of extreme power, since they are killable they don't believe they are gods.

 

 

Mind you, the concept of "not unkillable, therefore not a real god" is a very western, abrahamic religion concept. Gods from other religions drop dead all the time, look at Osiris, Baldur, Izanami, Several Hindu gods, etc.

 

If you approach the world of eorzea from an abrahamic stand point, yes its quite easy to be atheistic because you can believe everything can be killed.

 

from any other religious standpoint....eh what constitutes a god other than the religion ordaining it as such?