When joining a FC becomes a job

[Nebbs]

....

I remember for the five minutes I played WoW and I applied for to a guild, they had questions about lore on there! And wanted me to create my character combat sheet to submit (which was complicated as hell) and it took me over an hour to complete. I made a spelling mistake on one of the lore questions, and one of the officers pointed out in a sarcastic manner. THAT kind of screening I feel is ridiculous and I don't blame anyone who complains about that sort of shit.

 

I have had similar experiences in FFXIV. For me this is just a sign of what life in the FC will be like, if these are the officers.

 

Intentional or not a recruitment process is what an applicant will judge your FC on. Remember most of these FCs are trying to recruit like minded people "another one of us".

 

Personally I like diversity so I will never fit in with a strict group. I also love recruitment processes, it is one sign of a well run FC.

[Nebbs]

....

And considering the viewpoint of any guild serious and concerned enough to have a stringent application, the types of people they want to attract are people who understand why the application is in place if not appreciate it, who are serious about joining this guild and willing to put time and effort into the application process. I mean, what you're saying isn't wrong, I'm just not sure why it needs said since I've never seen a guild application basically say "lol we gotta make sure you don't suck."

 

I'm not saying don't screen I am saying do it in a positive way that reflects your FC rather than a negative one just to deter people. Though I accept one person's negative can be another's positive.

 

If your process reflects the way your FC is run then great! And maybe that's the point, that if an applicant does not like the process they should quit and avoid joining an FC that wont suit what they are looking for.

[Koro Dotharl]

I do not even consider joining guilds that does not have a strict application to fill in.

 

Open-for-all guilds are always filled with drama and power struggle. One that is more strict actually cares about getting rid of the toxins that some people carry with them, so to speak.

[Sylentmana]

I'd say the ones that really stick in my craw are those that say "go to our website to submit an applicatio." So you want me to take the time to stop playing a game to go to website? No thank you. If you can't do it in-game, I'm definitely not interested.

 

At the same time, people constantly spamming me with FC invites is just about the most annoying thing short of RMT shouts. I've had to block some people because the send me 3-4 invites every time I play.

[Gegenji]

At the same time, people constantly spamming me with FC invites is just about the most annoying thing short of RMT shouts. I've had to block some people because the send me 3-4 invites every time I play.

 

Gogon would get /tells asking if I wanted invites, until I put in my little message blurb that I wasn't looking for an FC on him. Haven't seen any since.

 

THOUGH, I do also remember a couple FCs that would just spam FC invites at me out of the blue a while back - and I kinda forget what I did to get that to stop. I think blacklisting the person doing it? It was usually the same person, so I think that sounds about right. Maybe there was an option I turned on too, but I don't recall.

[Kellach Woods]

I likely wouldn't be in the FC I'm in if I had to straight up apply and wasn't guaranteed a pass through from having RPed with them independently for over a year if not more.

[Kilieit]

On topic:

 

Part of me agrees with this assessment of weirdly long applications. The problem with questions is that people lie. I'm a shitty individual. I can pretend not to be, sign up for a few new accounts, and join whatever I please. So, while it's totally reasonable to want to cherry-pick who you do, and do not let in to the social circle you built, there's not a lot you can do proactively.

 

All of what you said is accurate to my experience and perspective, but I wanted to emphasise this part. This is what I meant when I said it wasn't always feasible to weed people out with an application process.

 

In my experience, there are four rough groups of applicants:

A) Well meaning and they fit in. (The ideal recruit.)

B) Well meaning but they don't fit in.

C) Don't fit in but they have another, neutral reason to want to join (E.g. friend in the guild).

D) Malicious (E.g. wants to rob guild bank, wants to "spy for another guild" (i.e. stir shit), etc etc).

 

Application processes only help you distinguish between types A and B. They don't help you pick out Type C or D - that's what conduct rules are for. Because both types will lie on their apps, but it's harder to keep up a lie consistently over a number of weeks or months. Your rules should, therefore, be angled towards picking out when someone is clashing with or harming the guild culture - and making it a monitorable, quantifiable thing, that everyone knows you can be kicked for and expects people to be kicked for.

 

Most of our applicants were type B, and as I mentioned earlier, were weeded out during the recruitment process - mostly via inactivity during the trial period (which tells us they don't really care that much about being in the guild, and we want people who care about being here). Thing is, Mr Abusive wasn't even a type D recruit - he was type C. His girlfriend had been in the guild longer, and he wanted to join her. Given the incident he was kicked during, he lied on his application in order to do this.

 

(I can only think of one Type D applicant we ever had, and they were kicked within 5 minutes of their joining, lol.)

 

I think it's folly to try and angle your application process so it'll weed out Type C as well, because this generally involves making it so much effort that someone who isn't invested for its own sake won't complete it... but... there's a certain threshold over which even people who might otherwise fit in with your guild are going to be lost. I do think the app process should be indicative of what every day life in the guild would be like - so unless you write daily prose marathons, requiring essays seems odd. And IMO once you go over 5 single-word-answer questions, you have to start asking what Shuck suggests: what are the answers to these questions even telling you about the applicant? That they can tell you what you want to hear?

 

Our app had a couple of single-word questions that mostly existed so we could hold people to their answers: stuff like "have you read the rules" and "will you follow the rules" less so we knew, and more so we could point to the agreement as justification if they later went back on it and we needed to make a kick. The last question was "tell us a bit about your RP character" so we could verify that they a) at least understood the principle of being an RPer and b) their character wasn't going to be stuck in "but I can't think of a reason to come~" limbo with regards to guild RP events. Everything else in terms of membership curation was done in the trial period or with the conduct infraction system.

 

All in all, I didn't actually have to make that many kicks of active members during my time as guild leader. But the ones I did make were justified, improved the health of the guild as a community, and I don't regret them. I think the other members of my guild understood my reasoning as well - helped by the fact that I was transparent about it - and that's why I only ever faced challenges (read: name-calling, attempted rumour-spreading) over my kicks from people who had just been kicked.

 

IMO if you are transparent about what you expect from people, transparent about what constitutes a kick in advance, and transparent about when someone hits those limits - and you still encounter drama... you have a bigger problem than the immediate drama, because it means your FC members don't trust your judgement, or your leadership. That's when you open a discussion with your members about how you can do better; not when you take kicking people off the table.

 

JESUS CHRIST WHY DO I WRITE SO MUCH

[ArmachiA]

^ Pretty much this.

 

You have to make sure people are going to fit with your group. I don't think I present my group in a negative light when I say ours is not a hugbox. I LOVE that about us, I love the fact we can discuss characters and storylines with frankness and humor. However, if someone thinks that saying we aren't a hugbox is negative - they won't fit in. And it will be a really negative experience for THEM. Sure, it sounds like warning you away from the guild, but I don't want people to be miserable in a guild they dislike because they were looking for something different.

 

On /gkicking - I've never had an instance where someone got in and said something blatant where the decision was easy to kick them. Ever. That would probably be nice, honestly because I would kick them really fast. It's always the ones who seem pretty nice at first but eventually start letting things show where it looks like they might cause drama later, but we aren't really sure unless one of the members make a complaint. And "Drama" isn't always some insidious thing either, sometimes it's as simple as an RP disagreement or someone is feeling left out. I don't kick for just "drama" (Unless of course it's listed on our "No go" list in the rules), I watch behavior.

 

My officers always ask pressing questions about the Characters of the people applying and we've noticed that THAT actually weeds people out pretty well. We asked one applicant if they understood having the Echo and being a Summoner was rare - he took it as "You can't be a Summoner" and flipped the hell out. We knew that they didn't like to be questioned and they were rejected. Another applicant didn't like us asking about his power level because it was ridiculously high ("How did he get to be a master so young?" was the question, for reference), so he got uppity and got rejected.I don't want to say exactly what questions are asked, but we ask to see, mostly, how people react. Yeah you can't weed them all out (We did have someone lie on the app before) but you can TRY.

[Kage]

I have to be perfectly honest. Based on my experience, I think knowing exactly what you want from an FC and communicating that is one of the most important things to have available to you in order to get the most from being in a guild.

 

I think applications really help with that. What do you want from the FC? What do you want to get out of the membership in said FC? What can you contribute and what should you?

 

If you've been on the RPC as long as I have, you have probably seen me jump from one FC... to another... to another... to another. Some of these I failed miserably to know what I wanted and whether or not I fit in. Some of that probably did not do too well because I have always completely bypassed what would be considered an FC applications process and joined by virtue of being friends with people inside the FC (IRL friends, raided once + friends inside, created the FC with IRL friends what a disaster this was, joined FC of static members, joined FC of peeps I raided with after destruction, joined the FC of peoples who were all kicked out from the destruction, joined friends who unfortunately could not be active when I was, joined friends again)

 

What can I contribute towards RP? What is my character like? How would I get my character involved in RP when a lot of it is more FC-plot centric? What can I do to make it work? What do I need from those in the FC to help me make this work? A few failures of my not knowing these things have led me to part from FCs in a... sometimes bitter ending. My own regrets.

 

 

 

... and then sometimes you just get slapped in the face by a trout by the FC lead who doesn't pay for his own sub but his wife does so when he gets caught cybering she gets him off the game but before he leaves he kicks every single person out. Destruction \o/

[Shofie]

I have a quite a few questions on my application that aren't really so much there for the answers, but rather, how they are answered as we feel it can give you a good idea about a person.

 

Yeah, the application process can be kind of silly and overboard, but as it's been pointed out, this is to help make the overall guild culture a better place. People so easily weeded out can go join those huge guilds that mass invite everyone they see with no application process. I'm sure they either won't care too much that the guild is likely a toxic place, or they'll continually find new guilds and be disenchanted because they can't find a place to call home.

[Teadrinker]

I've always been of the mind that if someone complains that the application process is too rigorous then it means the application process is working for what they've tried to create.

 

The best thing a guild can do is be as forthright as possible about what they are and what they do. If people don't read your website but then check the box that they did then that's their fault.

 

When I shop for any kind of guild/fc (pve/rp whatever) I am scowering their websites or whatever they have at their disposal. I'm reading about how they do things, how they operate, what different ranks mean, etc. When I finally settle on something I usually feel pretty confident that I looked around to the best of my ability and I focused on what is the best fit for me and I have no problems with a rigorous application at that point. In fact, I'm happy to fill it out.

 

I like seeing guild leaders put a lot of detail and care into their rules and how they structure things. It means someone gave enough of a damn to sit at their computer and think forward and prepare which means people are obviously invested in the place which translates into longevity.

[Damele]

Im not sure if I should be proud of the thread I started or not. I started this as a way to poke fun at the process, whether it's good or bad. Regardless of how it is taken I do find it humorous to see people's responses. 

 

I had one person message me with a bold statement, " You complain about applications thats probably why you will never be in a respectable FC, I know I wouldn't let you in mine."

 

I thought about it for some time and I have to agree with him. I may never get into his idea of respectable nor will I ever apply for his FC. I guess I will just have to stay with the group Im with now, enjoying their company and having fun.. Bummer......

[Lydia Lightfoot]

I'll just add that it's a total fallacy that a highly complex and detailed application process reduces problems between members by weeding out problem members in advance. That's utterly untrue and I think everyone who's said (or implied) that's the case knows better. I've been doing online RP for a very, very long time, as I'm sure many others have, and I've been in various MMOs and various guilds. Some were relaxed about their recruiting metrics, and others were very strict. I have yet to be in a guild that didn't have drama happen.

 

In fact, what I've seen is something of a correlation between the seriousness of the guild's application process and the impact of the drama when it occurs. Relaxed guilds seemed, in my observation, to have more frequent instances of drama, but each instance lacks significant gravity. People go, perhaps, but they more or less go in the manner in which they came - there's some sass and some salt, but the whole situation is more or less over with in short order and life moves on (until the next small bout of drama). The more complicated and serious guilds, however, tend to inherently attract more complicated and serious players - which is likely their intent - but with this comes the increased likelihood that when one of these driven, passionate individuals inevitably creates drama, it's not going to be minor. Everyone in the guild will be involved, long-term RP stories will be destroyed over the OOC of it without any IC basis for the end of the RP (requiring huge efforts to get plots back on track), friendships will be ruined as people take sides, and some will even flat out quit the game after watching months of effort go to waste.

 

Is either better than the other? Nope! Guilds should do what they want.  Just don't be deluded into thinking one method or the other can stop drama.

[Damele]

Sena.. Stop using logic!!

 

I have seen guilds that just invite those interested, no interview nothing, that work out great and really benefit from having non-like-minded people around. I have seen guilds that act like a special snowflake high school clique implode over drama. Its bound to happen with or without a long drawn out vetting process.

[ArmachiA]

I haven't seen anyone here imply or say that vetting solves drama forever.

[Tyndles]

Hey at least its not like the other game that has an add on that auto spams invites to people not in a guild. lol

[Shuck]

I haven't seen anyone here imply or say that vetting solves drama forever.

 

No, but I would argue that it doesn't even mitigate it. Due to being able to lie. Watch, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it right now.

 

Here we go. Get ready.

 

[lie]

I'm a generally likeable person who has no major personality flaws, and should totally be let into your guild. I am in no way argumentative, petty, or vindictive.

[/lie]

 

Except they don't tag it like I tag it. They're not good at tags. But I am the best at them.

 

Anyway, there's also a misconception floating around that a serious group needs a serious application process. I haven't found that to be true. We basically have an application process that I make up as I go, and we're pretty serious in tone. We like doing things in game. I mean, there's lines we don't bother crossing (like the token grind. Are you for real with this? Eat my balls, Squeenix. I'll just wait until comparable gear is for sale on the market. I'll make more gil by accident, my time is something I can't get back), but it's not like we show up, no pants on, being all "WHAT'S UP, OTHER FUCKERS IN THE INSTANCE, I THINK DOGS SHOULD VOTE."

 

On the original topic: Yeah, I still feel you. Kind of sucks sometimes, but when I see something I don't feel like doing in regards to a hobby, I just don't do it, dawg. I shrug, and I stroll.

[ArmachiA]

The misconception is that you're doing it for drama at all. I'm really not doing it to weed out drama myself, drama is human nature - it doesn't matter how many times you vet or how many people you get in who fit the mold, people are naturally dramatic. Who hasn't fought with their friends that they've known in real life? We all have, nothing stops drama. I have stories of drama from all aspects of my life - this game, overwatch, work, friends. That's how people are.

 

I don't do it for that reason.

 

I do it to make sure we get people with the same kind of RP style as us (Low powerlevel, able to take criticism, lore complaint, like darker themes and long plotlines, like to do OOC game stuff, etc etc) than to stop "drama". Our app doesn't even have a "Tell us about yourself" section, it has a "Tell us about your goals"

 

(As an aside, I also hate the word drama, because some people take EVERYTHING as being drama, when it's just humans being humans yall)

[Teadrinker]

Bottom line is drama starts with the people that ultimately WANT it there. This is a fact.

 

Vetting vs. Harsh Kicking Processes. Pick one.

[Faye]

I'll just add that it's a total fallacy that a highly complex and detailed application process reduces problems between members by weeding out problem members in advance. That's utterly untrue and I think everyone who's said (or implied) that's the case knows better. I've been doing online RP for a very, very long time, as I'm sure many others have, and I've been in various MMOs and various guilds. Some were relaxed about their recruiting metrics, and others were very strict. I have yet to be in a guild that didn't have drama happen.

 

idk what experiences you've had but nah, can't say we've all had the same, so there's really no reason to try to tell anyone else what they've seen and how they feel when they've already gone on the record with something different. If we "know better," you think folks are lying for... fun, I guess? Idk.

 

Anywho.

 

It's a case where disproving a negative ends up difficult. You can't say for certain what drama your application process might have stopped because you wouldn't know if it would have happened until it did. Guilds still get drama no matter how carefully they screen, but who knows how much more they would have gotten without the application process? And I think there are times for guild officers with a thorough vetting process where you know you did definitely succeed in keeping someone toxic out of your FC.

 

I've rejected applications, or even just asked questions or requested someone change a detail about their character if they're to be approved to have them scream at me, or go around slandering my FC. I've turned down applicants who gave off too many red flags only to see screenshots and logs of them harassing people weeks or even days later. Were those people bound to cause problems in the FC? Absolutely.

 

Is it foolproof? No. Does it work? At least a little.

[Sophia_Grave]

I'd much rather be a part of an FC with stringent entry requirements than one without, and it has little to do with 'drama' (which, I have to add, is such a nothing term by this point).

 

First and foremost, going through an app that takes time shows a modicum of commitment and affirms interest. Back when I ran a few RP forums, I can't tell you how many times people would join with all the interest in the world, only to cap out at a post count short of 10 and disappear forever. That wouldn't bother me at all, if I and other admins hadn't helped them get acquainted with lore, build their OC, start threads with them, and do just about anything to hold on to new, active members. We'd even do free art sketches or of people's main OCs or otherwise help the non-artists after a while to encourage them to stay. Even with a long app, this still happens, but far less than it does without-- I've been on both sides. When I was browsing the FC/LS lists here, a lot of them interested me. Most still do, based on their sales pitch and a cursory look around their content. But I can't say I could give them all the attention either I or they deserve. Ultimately, I'm just tired of repeating the same meet and greet over and over with people that simply don't stick it out.

 

Secondly, tone is important to me. I try to stick with those who enjoy the same vein of RP that I do. I've seen apps that are perfectly valid, and yet don't really jive with my style of RP. Don't get me wrong, variety is very important, but there is a point where another person's RP can really ruin muh immershun. I joke, but some things I just can't respond to or followup on because I'm essentially in a different mindset than the other person. Its all well and good for different RP styles to occupy the same spaces, but it then becomes difficult to satisfy both parties, especially if you're in a leadership position and are writing content that is meant to be fun for all. I'll sit down and watch an episode of Rick and Morty, then switch over to Game of Thrones. They scratch different itches. Both are quality television. They do not mix.

 

This is how I keep RP fun for me, and it works. For me. It addresses all the issues that annoy me about RPing over the years. You can't parse for every foreseeable problem, but I have read some truly bizarre apps that make me relieved I didn't put in the time for someone who wants something I don't have. I wish them all the best of course, but I just can't entertain them and myself. And considering how sometimes you have to pull teeth for meaningful RP that goes deeper than surface level, I don't think that an app that takes a half hour or an hour to do is much to ask.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

I'll just add that it's a total fallacy that a highly complex and detailed application process reduces problems between members by weeding out problem members in advance. That's utterly untrue and I think everyone who's said (or implied) that's the case knows better. I've been doing online RP for a very, very long time, as I'm sure many others have, and I've been in various MMOs and various guilds. Some were relaxed about their recruiting metrics, and others were very strict. I have yet to be in a guild that didn't have drama happen.

 

idk what experiences you've had but nah, can't say we've all had the same, so there's really no reason to try to tell anyone else what they've seen and how they feel when they've already gone on the record with something different. If we "know better," you think folks are lying for... fun, I guess? Idk.

 

I'll almost certainly get in trouble for saying this, but, I'd like it to go on record - since I see you do this a lot - that it is in fact possible to A) not take comments others made on a forum as if they were specifically and personally about you, B) skip right over the particular matter rather than being unnecessarily defensive, and C) if you simply can't resist replying, you could do so in a manner which is friendly and constructive rather than snooty, condescending, and hostile. 

 

You can apply that advice right now via the way you choose to react to this.

[Faye]

I'll almost certainly get in trouble for saying this, but, I'd like it to go on record - since I see you do this a lot - that it is in fact possible to A) not take comments others made on a forum as if they were specifically and personally about you, B) skip right over the particular matter rather than being unnecessarily defensive, and C) if you simply can't resist replying, you could do so in a manner which is friendly and constructive rather than snooty, condescending, and hostile. 

 

You can apply that advice right now via the way you choose to react to this.

 

You're coming in here accusing everyone with an opinion different from your own of being not only wrong, but also disingenuous for some mysterious, unspecified reason, and then expecting them not to take it "personally." Perhaps you only see me doing it a lot since you make such pretentious and accusatory posts regularly? Pot, meet kettle, and consider your own advice. All well and good when you get defensive and snide at others, but no one else is allowed to retaliate in kind, eh? A typical, transparent ploy to get someone else to "be the bigger person" so you won't have to and can sneak the last word in.

[Sylentmana]

I'll almost certainly get in trouble for saying this, but, I'd like it to go on record - since I see you do this a lot - that it is in fact possible to A) not take comments others made on a forum as if they were specifically and personally about you, B) skip right over the particular matter rather than being unnecessarily defensive, and C) if you simply can't resist replying, you could do so in a manner which is friendly and constructive rather than snooty, condescending, and hostile. 

 

You can apply that advice right now via the way you choose to react to this.

 

You're coming in here accusing everyone with an opinion different from your own of being not only wrong, but also disingenuous for some mysterious, unspecified reason, and then expecting them not to take it "personally." Perhaps you only see me doing it a lot since you make such pretentious and accusatory posts regularly? Pot, meet kettle, and consider your own advice. All well and good when you get defensive and snide at others, but no one else is allowed to retaliate in kind, eh? A typical, transparent ploy to get someone else to "be the bigger person" so you won't have to and can sneak the last word in.

 

You two keep at it and the mods will be having the last word when they lock the thread.

[Grott]

 

You two keep at it and the mods will be having the last word when they lock the thread.

 

Getting a thread locked in this forum is a rite of passage.

 

Let the debate.... CONTINUEEEEEE!