Personal Housing Thread 2.0

[Melkire]

*points at the giant windmill in The Goblet next to Raubahn's Salute*

 

Take that. And similar places in Lavender Beds and The Mist. Add a door. Drop an aetheryte right outside that we can teleport to. Give us laaaaaaarge apartments via instances, with the ability to garden in potted plants a la Mog Houses. Add a communal chocobo stable instance. Allow us to whitelist friends we'd like to be able to visit our "personal housing". Price this setup accordingly.

 

...oh look. Something everyone would have been happy with.

[111]

Rawr I'm so mad.

 

Not really, but I get the hate. We can only hope they'll change it a bit in the future. Yoshi P is pretty good at responding to stuff like this (hunts are a good example.)

[TheLastCandle]

I'd gladly take city apartments. Make Gridania's an area in the trees with suspended platforms and bridges. Like an Ewok village! Only, you know, with a little more class. And slightly less yub-yub.

 

Rawr I'm so mad.

 

Not really, but I get the hate. We can only hope they'll change it a bit in the future. Yoshi P is pretty good at responding to stuff like this (hunts are a good example.)

 

[Kage]

Honestly I don't even know what I'd do with a garden. ULDAH regularly trains the chocobos stabled. Our gardener left and no one knows what to garden so the garden has been empty for like a week now. I don't know what I'd do with one for myself.

[111]

The bad thing about this though, is that they can't turn back time. I'm under the understanding that the personal housing areas take up *huge* amounts of memory on their datacenters. Which is why they have been increasing them rather slowly.

 

Even if they changed the housing policy tomorrow, they can't just take them away from the people that already have them. So while the price issue could get fixed (with something like apartments), the problem of individuals snapping up all the smalls before an FC can get one doesn't go away.

[Phayte]

Apartments would be way better than what they have now if they could provide it to everyone. They could have made like 1 (or a cluster) of personal housing wards that look like the current one. But instead of getting to decorate the outside and having a plot to yourself, you make it more generic outdoor area. When people access the door, they choose who's house they want. It'd be like company room, but in a slightly larger scale. That at least gives the illusion of a house. Instanced and would presumably be less server intensive.

 

Of course that would take away the stable and garden though. They should just make it so you can stable your chocobo at the porters int he cities and just have a potted plant. Can't cross breed maybe, but you can at least grow chocobo foods.

[C'kayah Polaali]

The bad thing about this though, is that they can't turn back time. I'm under the understanding that the personal housing areas take up *huge* amounts of memory on their datacenters. Which is why they have been increasing them rather slowly.

 

Even if they changed the housing policy tomorrow, they can't just take them away from the people that already have them. So while the price issue could get fixed (with something like apartments), the problem of individuals snapping up all the smalls before an FC can get one doesn't go away.

There are a number of things they could do to address this.

 

- They could fix their crappy housing code so that it's not so much a problem -- this sounds like the path they're taking to be able to add so many new wards in 2.4

- They could use a "ward pool" that assigns new wards to servers on-demand as old wards fill up. This would let heavily populated servers have more wards, since the less populated servers frequently don't have many filled wards. They'd want to do something to make sure servers have a minimum number of wards, but this would help mitigate the problem.

- They could flag some small plots as FC-only, to allow FCs the opportunity to buy houses on new wards before they're snapped up by individuals.

- They could allow people to invite others into their inn rooms! A lot of people simply want to have a private space for RP, so this would allow for that.

[Titor]

All in all I do not think that housing should be taking up that much memory. Below is a rough calculation that I had made when this was first announced. I made the mistake of posting it on the OF where I got flamed and insulted to the point that I took it down. IDK why, was genuinely trying to get an estimate and was not attacking anyone (unlike most of the other threads that were getting support and upvotes), but whatever that is besides the point. Here were my calculations that I had preserved.

Let us make some rough assumptions. Very rough, just to get an idea.

 

First let us assume they use MySQL. 

 

Using the documents here, we can estimate the data sizes:

MySQL Storage Requirements

 

Each house will need the following data values, using the largest integer storage of bigint:

House number (8 bytes)

Owner number (8 bytes)

Locked/unlock (tinyint, 1 byte)

House name (Varchar, assume 15 characters max, so 16 bytes)

House description (Varchar, assume 120 characters max, so 121 bytes)

----------------

 

Secondary functions:

Ownership:

Additional owners. A separate table.

House number (8 bytes primary index)

Player Number (Secondary owners) (8 bytes)

Access Level (for varying degrees of editing freedom) (8 bytes)

 

Items:

Assume 200 items per house (The contents of this table will be multiplied by 200)

House number (8 bytes primary index)

ItemID (8 bytes)

Bind state (1 byte)

Colour (8 bytes)

X-coords (Use Double: 8 bytes)

Y-coords (Use Double: 8 bytes)

Rotation (Use Double: 8 bytes)

On Table/other item (other items itemid, 8 bytes)

 

 

----

 

The total data cost of one house would be approximately 1.158*10^-5 gb.

The above number times 3 million players is

 

35.74 GB.

 

Ah, you might say, it is not the data storage that is the problem but the time it takes to retrieve it!

 

In this benchmark tool comparing mysql and mongodb showing the comparison of fetching 5,000 rows out of 10,000,000 rows as being approximately 565 ms with two threads. MongoDB was able to retrieve the same results in approximately 2ms.

Using more cores speeds up this time.

This would be around accessing 12 houses at any given time. (5,000 rows to select, assuming each house would consume about 400 rows) This is also assuming that the houses are stored on one central housing server, and not on their respective servers (Such as Balmung or whatever)

 

Add some layer of housing caching on it (only update when someone is editing) this number will get faster and faster.

 

 

Am.. I completely wrong or am I missing something?

 

Because it should only take around 35GB of data which is almost negligible for a database these days with big data being the new CS fad.

 

If you see any corrections/improvements/etc please let me know. I am trying to think really how much space/power this would take. Not looking for optimizations, since I am trying to estimate worst-case.

 

 

 

Aside from that, most other games with housing are able to support player-owned houses easily. I really wished it would have been an instanced plot that you can invite friends or whatever over with (Maybe with an ACL), and I was REALLY hoping for the ability to expand/build on my house. Build new wings, build new floors, build new structures, whatever. That would have been really awesome. It would have been a great gilsink too since more expansions would be more money, and SE could always add new expansions on. Make the base house like 100k, then have 80 mil worth of different upgrades if they wanted to dump that much. IDK.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Because individuals and FCs are now pitted against each other for space, it's just going t make things harder for those FCs trying to come up with the money.

It's not so much an issue with coming up with money as it is an issue with the way plots are sold.

 

When you look at a ward, you can see the free plots. You can't buy them. You have to run to them and hope they're free by the time you get there. On the morning the servers came up for 2.38, a friend of mine hit the wards to buy a plot for her FC. She had done her homework and had a priority-sorted list of plots, and started right when the servers came up. She tried 4 plots, but each was sold by the time she'd gotten to it. By the time she missed the 4th, the smalls were gone.

 

The larger issue, though, is simply the competition between a smaller number of FCs that want a plot and a large number of individuals that do. It was already a problem in 2.38 (which was surprising because no one knew they'd be so expensive until the night of the patch). For 2.4, *everyone* will have a month to save up for their house. I did some back-of-the-envelope calculations, and I'm predicting that a FC aiming for a small house is going to have something like a 10-20% chance of getting one in 2.4. This assumes they're there when the servers come up and know exactly what they're doing.

 

I'm in favor of personal housing, but the way they've managed things pretty much screws any small FC out of housing now.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Aside from that, most other games with housing are able to support player-owned houses easily. I really wished it would have been an instanced plot that you can invite friends or whatever over with (Maybe with an ACL), and I was REALLY hoping for the ability to expand/build on my house. Build new wings, build new floors, build new structures, whatever. That would have been really awesome. It would have been a great gilsink too since more expansions would be more money, and SE could always add new expansions on. Make the base house like 100k, then have 80 mil worth of different upgrades if they wanted to dump that much. IDK.

I love your calculations, my brother and/or sister in math!

 

Have you seen how housing is done for EverQuest II? It's pretty amazing. You buy (and pay taxes on*) a plot that gives you a basic floorplan, but you're otherwise able to decorate however you want with a flexibility that puts FF's housing to shame.

 

Take a look at EQ2 Decorators, a website with housing decorator tips and showcases of nice setups. It's pretty amazing.

 

The fact that this is a ten year old game only makes FF's housing problems that much more painful.

 

*IIRC from my EQ2 days, you bought the plot (for a reasonable sum) and payed regular (reasonable) taxes on it to use it. Getting too much into arrears would lead to you losing the plot, with all your decorations going into escrow. This freed up housing owned by people who'd left the game without being a hassle for people who were simply taking a break.

[111]

Strangely enough it wasn't too bad getting a house in 2.3 when they added one more ward. I think it was because they didn't really advertise they were adding it.

 

I got up 15 minutes after the patch, and was still the first person to buy a house.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Strangely enough it wasn't too bad getting a house in 2.3 when they added one more ward. I think it was because they didn't really advertise they were adding it.

 

I got up 15 minutes after the patch, and was still the first person to buy a house.

2.3 was FC-only, so you didn't have to compete with a flood of individuals buying a house.

[Titor]

 

The fact that this is a ten year old game only makes FF's housing problems that much more painful.

 

TY

 

Also, I had not really played EQII as much, but I know that Wildstar gives everyone a house for free(? it was in beta IIRC). You could change the climate, outside, grass, everything. Even a very old game such as Toontown (from 2003), a game for children is able to have instanced housing for every single character, alts and not. (I played this game way back when as a child do not judge >_>)

 

But really if a game made in 2003 for children can support housing for everyone, IDK why a really new supposedly cutting edge game is not able to.

[Kellach Woods]

I'm in favor of personal housing, but the way they've managed things pretty much screws any small FC out of housing now.

Also screws anyone who can't log in as soon as the servers are up due to how fast those were snapped up.

 

Titor, I think the decision to not have instanced housing has more to do with a design decision of wanting the house to be there in the actual world in a way rather than inability to do so. I mean, I have no practical or theoretical ability in coding or anything of the sort and even I could see a way they could possibly do it if that's not the intended design.

 

Might be just a bad idea. Those happen!

[Naunet]

Aside from that, most other games with housing are able to support player-owned houses easily. I really wished it would have been an instanced plot that you can invite friends or whatever over with (Maybe with an ACL), and I was REALLY hoping for the ability to expand/build on my house. Build new wings, build new floors, build new structures, whatever. That would have been really awesome. It would have been a great gilsink too since more expansions would be more money, and SE could always add new expansions on. Make the base house like 100k, then have 80 mil worth of different upgrades if they wanted to dump that much. IDK.

 

I have had a long-standing position that SE went in the exact wrong direction they should have when designing their housing system, by placing the massive goldsink as a barrier to entry when it should be placed in the enjoying of one's home. It is this very fundamental flaw in XIV's housing that is at the root of pretty much every complaint. They threw up a barrier of money and a barrier of limited space, while providing an extremely bare-bones housing experience, with the intent that most of a player's effort would go into the obtaining of the house, rather than decorating and improving upon it.

 

I'm with you all the way in that I was oh so very much hoping for instanced housing so that we could maybe actually enjoy a fully fleshed out system. Take WildStar as a great example. I have spent far more gold and far more time in housing in that game than I have in any other aspect of the game, because the system is just that well-designed. The barrier to entry is almost nonexistent (get to level 15), and then the sky is quite literally the limit. SE wants a gold sink? They've apparently forgotten the number one rule in making people spend as much money as possible: you make them spend it in numerous small amounts over time, not one big lump to wall them off from fun. I can pretty much guarantee they would sink more gil if they expanded the decor system and brought it up to snuff with other MMOs in terms of customization, than they do nowadays with people just purchasing houses.

 

And hearing SE continue to gripe about server space just further cements the notion that they are running on some seriously outdated and horribly coded tech. Each individual plot in WS will soon (as of the next patch) have an item limit of 2080. Not long after that patch, they intend on implementing communities, which are somewhat smaller versions of the Wards we have in XIV, except you get to pick who all of your neighbors are, as well as guild neighborhoods. I just can't wrap my head around any explanation for SE's decision to go with the housing system they have other than 1) they are just that blind or 2) their equipment sucks. I can understand the motivation of wanting to create a living player-driven neighborhood, but really... if you can't pull it off without the extreme restrictions that XIV has, I'm not convinced it's an appropriate design decision.

 

The whole thing is disappointing. I'd been juggling coming back to poke at personal housing, but now it's pretty much guaranteed that I'm not touching the game again. Forum RP only for me. ;.;

[Dravus]

I'm not very impressed with the way in which solo housing has been implemented. It's incredibly archaic and an outright lie due to how we were told that it would be significantly cheaper than Free Company housing.

 

That we're forced to compete with other players directly is just awful as well and doesn't really serve to create a healthy community. I was eagerly awaiting the chance to play around with a house of my own and now...I'm not really sure what I'll do. I don't fancy mindlessly grinding away until I acquire a small fortune and I certainly don't feel like being held hostage to a Free Company in order to purchase a room for my character to play around with.

 

Wildstar implemented player housing in a very efficient and enjoyable manner. I was hoping FFXIV would go down a similar route but it doesn't seem like that'll be happening anytime soon...if ever.

[ArmachiA]

The thing is, SE has flat out admitted they are running on some crappy outdated hardware and coding. I don't know if you paid attention to when 1.0 went down and started being rebuilt but they were pretty frank that they had to build on the old teams code and the old teams code was TERRIBLE. I should really find some of the things some people found out, but their hands were tied because 1.0 players needs to keep everything intact. Servers were also effect by this because, even though they bought some new servers, they are still running on the backs of the old ones.

 

I wish the beta/alpha forums still existed because a lot of information was tossed in their that is no longer available.

 

Don't quote me on this, but I remember them saying most of these issues would be fixed come the first expansion since it would be the first time ARR wasn't relying on 1.0 at all. I remember this, I even remember the "please be patient" apology in the beta forums. We'll see if I'm making shit up when Fanfest happens and they talk about the expansion. If big changes are coming, this I probably remembered correctly. If not, then wishful thinking became a memory

[Aldotsk]

To me, so far aside from housing and glamour disappointments... (And Musketeers), he hasn't disappointed majorly on other side of FF14 contents. So I find that this could be resolved slowly receiving people's feedbacks. He did say that he will do his best to add even more additional wards for 2.4, so wait for it I guess

[Elaris]

I'm glad I was able to purchase a home a long while ago. Yoshi had recently told his Japanese fan base that housing will be for those who work for it as an achievement basically. The price is supposed to help with the fight against RMT and that Personal Housing is supposed to be a means for those solo players that refuse to join an FC. I however do not agree with that and just see it as an excuse for the system that they have implemented at this time but what can ya do.

[ArmachiA]

I don't mind if the Devs believe that Personal Housing, or FC housing, should be something people should work toward. I don't mind it at all. I may not AGREE completely, since other games just hand you personal housing like candy, but that's their design decision and I can respect that.

 

I don't think it's fair for it to be so limiting though and it is something they need to address. If housing is going to be something to work for with gil, it should be available WHEN YOU HAVE THE GIL. It's only fair.

 

My FC has two houses (One in Lavender Beds and one in Mist) and I have a personal home (In the Goblet) but I understand and will always understand the issues and why people are upset. Especially the whole lying thing, left a bad taste in my mouth.

[Naunet]

The price is supposed to help with the fight against RMT 

 

It's funny they say this, because when you take a highly desired game feature and then price it beyond the reach of tons of people, plus make it insanely limited, you... actually possibly encourage people to make use of RMT.

[Flickering Ember]

Pure and simple this was the laziest, most unprofessional design feature I have ever seen in a game. It is on par to a high school student slapping together a project minutes before it is due and turning in something that isn't even close to finished. I joked to myself last night "What if they  hadn't even started on personal housing until now and they are hustling to get it done?" I joked, given the lack of info they have given us. Didn't expect to be right. It didn't take them half a year to figure out how to code FC housing to make it so individuals could purchase them. If it was this difficult to figure out how to work around server strains....why didn't they just push it back? I would rather that than a gimp housing system that screws over everyone but the most hardcore of players.

 

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I am honestly surprised that anyone would defend this. It is that lazy. And they knew folks wouldn't be happy seeing as how they kept their mouths shut right up to the last minute.

 

I'll bite. Disclaimer: This is purely Devil's Advocate.

 

What did you expect them to do? Again, personal, single-player housing wasn't on the table until people demanded it for months. It isn't lazy, because we don't know what was worked on behind the scenes; Maybe they had a functioning model that wasn't workable in the long-term, maybe they didn't have the server space to justify it, maybe the level of work creating an entirely-different-but-mostly-the-same infrastructure just wasn't worth the manpower? SE's been clear that the work on 2.4 and beyond is already underway, so why deviate resources from that to work on something like this?

 

Allow me to draw everyone's attention to the flak that happened when Novus upgrades slipped one month from 2.25 to 2.28. It was a month, and people flipped their wigs over it. Now consider how many people that actually affected, given the community's propensity to bitch and whine about atma droprates and the like? They got a ton of blowback from a small percentage of people over "dropping promises" so it's insane to think it would have been okay for them to delay anything.

 

 

 

A lot of players were expecting something similar but separate housing areas for individuals. I was always pretty skeptical about that idea though because of how few housing wards were released. I personally was expecting an instanced housing area. No neighborhoods. Cookie cutter interiors that look the same for all players. Pretty much the 'private chambers' models but with a house+ yard. When there is enough server space for a single FC to have 512 rooms, I do figure that the same could be achieved with personal housing.

 

I don't know anything about their original plans since I joined after ARR was released, well after launch. But as a new player who saw the feature promoted, it really sounded like something was in the works instead of it being something tacked on like how it was.

[Dravus]

The price is supposed to help with the fight against RMT 

 

It's funny they say this, because when you take a highly desired game feature and then price it beyond the reach of tons of people, plus make it insanely limited, you... actually possibly encourage people to make use of RMT.

 

Yeah. It's the same with movies - a lot of people resort to piracy because it now costs a small fortune to visit the cinema despite it once being a fairly affordable way to spend an evening.

[Clover]

I personally was expecting an instanced housing area. No neighborhoods. Cookie cutter interiors that look the same for all players. Pretty much the 'private chambers' models but with a house+ yard. When there is enough server space for a single FC to have 512 rooms, I do figure that the same could be achieved with personal housing.

 

It all comes down to personal opinion, of course. I must be one of the few people who don't have any problem with the current system, and I very much prefer the current beautiful neighbourhoods to a single instanced home that no one else can see.

 

I'm fine because they will add many more wards, and nothing stops them from adding more in future patches. Prices are also going down as hours pass (or that's what the patch notes said), so many people will still be able to afford a house by the next update.

 

Space is still limited, yes. Not everyone will be able to get a house, and not everyone will have the money for it either. Many games with house systems have limited space (though not all of them have such nice maps as FFXIV does; my Archeage house is a pain). It is a pity that space is limited, but if the only solution is to get rid of neighbourhoods, I certainly prefer to deal with the former.

 

tl;dr: I for one like the current system, and I'm eager to try my luck when the next patch arrives. Just wanted to add my two cents!

[Naunet]

Space is still limited, yes. Not everyone will be able to get a house

 

This is a massive understatement.

 

 

 

Only 2% of the population will be able to have a house. In order to raise that percentage substantially, SE will have to add hundreds (many multiple hundreds) of wards. At the rate they do that... well, I for one have no intention of sticking around to wait that out.

 

2%. That number sounds familiar... wait, when did housing because the sole realm of the elite?! The system that, in the vast majority of MMOs that possess such a thing, is one of the few things the entire population has equal access to. *boggles*