Any mention of pregnancy or birthgiving in-game? Are we even sure we are mammals?

[Kage]

Actually, whales have mammary glands

[Amelia]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

 

If Devs weren't appealing to our human-mammalian sensibilities first, Garuda's appearance would have been designed to be appealing to her Beastmen and that likely would've resulted in something MUCH more Ixal-like.

 

I always thought Garuda was based off of the mytholocal creature- the Harpy. And I think those creatures WERE female.

 

Though I understand in FFXIV lore they'd asexual.

[Mae]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

And what about whales ? They are mammals and don't have breasts.. Unless..

 

 

 

 

 

WTF happened to the brain of those people ._. ???

Whales technically have breasts. BUT, just to cover myself, I'll amend:

 

In fantasy/sci-fi settings, the appearance of breasts don't always equal a mammalian species.

 

Also, that picture is horrifying. I need eye bleach.

[Mae]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

 

If Devs weren't appealing to our human-mammalian sensibilities first, Garuda's appearance would have been designed to be appealing to her Beastmen and that likely would've resulted in something MUCH more Ixal-like.

 

I always thought Garuda was based off of the mytholocal creature- the Harpy. And I think those creatures WERE female.

 

Though I understand in FFXIV lore they'd asexual.

Harpys were female, yup. Depending on the version, they were humanoid females with bird-like features to birds with human female features. I just watched "The Last Unicorn" last night, and the version of Harpy they had there was a bird with three breasts.

[Ilwe'ran]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

And what about whales ? They are mammals and don't have breasts.. Unless..

 

 

 

 

 

WTF happened to the brain of those people ._. ???

Whales technically have breasts. BUT, just to cover myself, I'll amend:

 

In fantasy/sci-fi settings, the appearance of breasts don't always equal a mammalian species.

 

Also, that picture is horrifying. I need eye bleach.

 

Yeah I get it, was just.. Trying to find a reason to post that awkward picture.. Don't.. DON'T JUDGE ME OK !? :lol:

 

I found a picture of a whale with boobs as well. People are weird.

 

Actually, whales have mammary glands

 

Yup, but we were talking about visible breasts.. And nipples

[LiadansWhisper]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

 

If Devs weren't appealing to our human-mammalian sensibilities first, Garuda's appearance would have been designed to be appealing to her Beastmen and that likely would've resulted in something MUCH more Ixal-like.

 

I think that trying to equate what are essentially living gods (more or less) to the mortals that populate the world is a bit off.  Primals exist outside of the evolutionary question of why someone would have breasts because, well, they're not mortal and they don't - so far as we know - evolve (being coalesced aether and whatnot).

 

But when you combine the presence of both breasts and belly buttons, as well as the fact that we're never - not once - given any reason to believe that Hyur are anything more than Eorzea's version of "Human" (and since, according to the devs, all the other playable races are also the same species as the Hyur, making them all essentially "Eorzea's version of Human," too), there's no reason whatsoever to believe that Hyur would have breasts for any reason other than because they have mammary glands.

 

Which makes them mammals.

 

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

And what about whales ? They are mammals and don't have breasts.. Unless..

 

 

 

 

 

WTF happened to the brain of those people ._. ???

 

Whales do not have breasts as we know them (though you could argue that neither do cows, dogs, or many other mammal species), but they do  have mammary glands, and they do nurse their young.

[Dasair]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

 

If Devs weren't appealing to our human-mammalian sensibilities first, Garuda's appearance would have been designed to be appealing to her Beastmen and that likely would've resulted in something MUCH more Ixal-like.

 

I always thought Garuda was based off of the mytholocal creature- the Harpy. And I think those creatures WERE female.

 

Though I understand in FFXIV lore they'd asexual.

 

I'm just going to sneak in here and mention something, since I saw this quest a ton of times, and while it doesn't directly apply, it might be some shred of.. something to potentially support the possibility that Garuda embodies an Ixal ideal of sorts.

 

Even though the Mamool'ja aren't the Ixal, there is a particular FATE around Bronze Lake where a Mamool'ja seeks to get into the springs, but is essentially denied for unruly behavior and oogling women in the past.  It's not entirely clear if the offender actually did these things, or if it's just prejudice, but supposing it was to be considered true, it's actually possible that some of the beast tribes (or at least Mamool'ja) could find a more human-esque female form appealing.  

 

If the Ixal are in the same camp that could explain it.  But it also might not be anything either, since the Mamool'ja and the Ixal are entirely different.  I just always thought it was interesting that a member of one of the beast tribes would potentially find the more humanoid races appealing.  (Though I also agree with the harpy thing, considering Garuda's fury almost all of the time, and how SE likes to grab things from mythology.  The harpy equation might be missed otherwise, if they felt it was important, unless stated.)

 

That said, I'd honestly think it'd be great if Garuda were some sort of entirely non-humanoid kind of creature and/or more like an Ixal in design, yet still have it be considered female if they wanted that aspect, instead of potentially doing the whole 'you can tell it's female because breasts' thing.  Because, gods, we have enough of the whole ' it's a different race, they have entirely nothing to do with humans, but look, the ladies have boobs' stuff to last forever.

[Ilwe'ran]

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

 

If Devs weren't appealing to our human-mammalian sensibilities first, Garuda's appearance would have been designed to be appealing to her Beastmen and that likely would've resulted in something MUCH more Ixal-like.

 

I think that trying to equate what are essentially living gods (more or less) to the mortals that populate the world is a bit off.  Primals exist outside of the evolutionary question of why someone would have breasts because, well, they're not mortal and they don't - so far as we know - evolve (being coalesced aether and whatnot).

 

But when you combine the presence of both breasts and belly buttons, as well as the fact that we're never - not once - given any reason to believe that Hyur are anything more than Eorzea's version of "Human" (and since, according to the devs, all the other playable races are also the same species as the Hyur, making them all essentially "Eorzea's version of Human," too), there's no reason whatsoever to believe that Hyur would have breasts for any reason other than because they have mammary glands.

 

Which makes them mammals.

 

I brought up Garuda because of an earlier statement of "If that were the case, female characters wouldn't have breasts at all.  Breasts exist solely for the purpose of producing milk for babies" that was echo'd a few times. We're a species that's hard-wired to equal breasts with femininity, regardless if something is a mammal or not.  I know Garuda's an asexual being, I was trying to point out the flawed logic of "breasts = mammal" in a fantasy setting, not trying to insinuate that Garuda -was- a mammal.

 

And what about whales ? They are mammals and don't have breasts.. Unless..

 

 

 

 

 

WTF happened to the brain of those people ._. ???

 

Whales do not have breasts as we know them (though you could argue that neither do cows, dogs, or many other mammal species), but they do  have mammary glands, and they do nurse their young.

 

Was joking, hence my message after which is right before yours

[Shizuka]

I think on top of the NPC instance I mentioned earlier, someone also brought up the Sahagin mentioning that we don't lay eggs. The quote in question comes from Novv during The Scarlet Bloodletter quest and is as follows:

 

I imagine a warrior of your ssstature would have much to impart to your hatchlings. Ah, but you shhhorewalkers do not lay eggs, correct?

 

Which seems pretty definitive on how our characters reproduce.

[Kage]

well... somehow we're all xenomorphs and don't die when our chests burst. *nod* ??

[Gegenji]

We obviously reproduce by budding.

[Kage]

Caption reads: And the female lalafell named Chachapu Chapu sprouted from the garden happily on her nameday.

[Gegenji]

The scarecrow was most pleased.

[Chlodomer]

Was joking, hence my message after which is right before yours

 

She doesn't doubt it I'm sure, but with what goes on in this thread it's honestly hard to tell what is a joke and what isn't.

[Zyrusticae]

The whole thing with non-mammalian mammaries really ticks me off.

 

I mean, you're not even trying at that point. It's completely lazy to the point of being insulting. If you're gonna do non-human races at all you better do it right! (Hence why I love Iksar and Asura so much more than I do, say, Argonians...)

 

It's also kind of dumb when they assume a universal standard of beauty. Granted, furries are a thing and bestiality exists and is practiced (shockingly enough, 1/50 human beings harbors this as a fantasy), but they're looked down upon for reasons, some good, some not so good. At any rate I am 100% certain that a reptilian or avian creature would not find soft, squishy pale-skinned meatbags to be attractive at all and that any who do would be considered extreme deviants and probably socially ostracized.

 

But okay. It's fantasy. Whatever. Do your thing, devs.

[Jancis]

At the end of the day, what puts food on the table, what the customer wants. Even though numbers aren't the whole truth, they don't lie. Though it's fun to try to think up biological reasons and whatnot for the sake of imagination, in the end aesthetic appeal is a large selling point for the game in environment and models.

 

Case in point. Lalalalala - just snagged it from lodestone

 

 

[Fefeya]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I believe there is a woman giving birth in the Hawthorne Hut. (not sure though.)

[Dat Oni]

Part of me understands this thread to an extent.

 

The other part of me is having difficulty comprehending why boobs are a bad thing.

[Mae]

I think on top of the NPC instance I mentioned earlier, someone also brought up the Sahagin mentioning that we don't lay eggs. The quote in question comes from Novv during The Scarlet Bloodletter quest and is as follows:

 

I imagine a warrior of your ssstature would have much to impart to your hatchlings. Ah, but you shhhorewalkers do not lay eggs, correct?

 

Which seems pretty definitive on how our characters reproduce.

There are snakes and sharks that give live birth instead of laying eggs. And if I'm reading correctly, the only difference between their method and most mammals is how the unborn are nourished: in most mammals, there's the placental connection where the mother provides nourishment, whereas with the sharks and snakes the young are self contained for nourishment (basically a yolk). Fertilization and gas exchange is nearly identical for both the sharks/snakes and mammals... and, again, the live birth.

 

... And then, just to be fair to the overall argument, I suppose... we have the platypus. Lays eggs in nests, but still a mammal. And then we have the echidna, which also lays eggs, but carries the egg in a pouch until it hatches and develops a while before emerging, and females don't have nipples but is still a mammal...

 

...

 

Hrm. Okay, maybe XIV races are mammals that evolved from the echidna?

 

 

 

At the end of the day, what puts food on the table, what the customer wants. Even though numbers aren't the whole truth, they don't lie. Though it's fun to try to think up biological reasons and whatnot for the sake of imagination, in the end aesthetic appeal is a large selling point for the game in environment and models.

Basiaclly, yeah. We're a species that's (for the most part) hard-wired to be attracted to others who have the same basic bodily configuration, and to associate boobs with females and dangling-parts with males. As a selling point, SE would've had a harder time pulling in numbers if they had only given us characters that had androgynous bodies/faces and the only way to tell the differences between the sexes were (for example) skin/hide colours, plumage, horns and ridge patterns. Would they still have gotten players if they had done this? Yes, but the game itself wouldn't appeal to such a broad spectrum as it does, as there are people out there that will only play a human/the setting's human analogue (Hyur, for XIV).

[Zyrusticae]

At the end of the day, what puts food on the table, what the customer wants. Even though numbers aren't the whole truth, they don't lie. Though it's fun to try to think up biological reasons and whatnot for the sake of imagination, in the end aesthetic appeal is a large selling point for the game in environment and models.

 

Case in point. Lalalalala - just snagged it from lodestone

 

http://i.imgur.com/KIM1gjl.jpg

 

http://pyjamamoney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/shut-up-and-take-my-money-9299-2560x16001.jpg

Haha! Yes, well, it should be noted that pandering is okay in moderation - it's very, very easy to go way too far with it (*cough* TERA *coughcough*). It's also preferable if it's not completely one-sided like it usually is, as Bikini Armor Battle Damage rather ably highlights to the detriment of lazy artists everywhere.

 

I should also note that I, as a player, should have options and choices and don't appreciate being forced into one thing or another. If the coliseum set were representative of all the armors in the game you can be sure I would be ticked off about it. Instead, the option was available as one of many and I chose to dress my character in this way; my character had no say in it whatsoever. She's a fictional construct entirely at the mercy of her creator.

 

...This is getting completely off-topic, but suffice it to say that I think there's a healthy middle ground for this sort of thing and that taking the low road is lazy and representative of a regressive mindset.

 

Part of me understands this thread to an extent.

 

The other part of me is having difficulty comprehending why boobs are a bad thing.

Did... did someone try to suggest that? If someone did, I don't remember reading it.

 

Basiaclly, yeah. We're a species that's (for the most part) hard-wired to be attracted to others who have the same basic bodily configuration, and to associate boobs with females and dangling-parts with males. As a selling point, SE would've had a harder time pulling in numbers if they had only given us characters that had androgynous bodies/faces and the only way to tell the differences between the sexes were (for example) skin/hide colours, plumage, horns and ridge patterns. Would they still have gotten players if they had done this? Yes, but the game itself wouldn't appeal to such a broad spectrum as it does, as there are people out there that will only play a human/the setting's human analogue (Hyur, for XIV).

Well, I should say that I think it's quite possible to make a very attractive non-human race with a completely different form of gender dimorphism. As I said, the Iksar are a pretty good example for this (though the males are a bit too bulky in my mind), with no mammaries and a completely different facial structure for the females. I also like the Asura quite a bit, and while they do end up being difficult to tell apart for sex at times, I really don't think that works to their detriment at all.

 

And of course, FFXIV has the example of Lalafells, where you literally cannot tell the difference between a male and female character if they're wearing full armor (especially with a covering helmet on). Their appeal does not seem to suffer any for it.

[Shizuka]

 

There are snakes and sharks that give live birth instead of laying eggs. And if I'm reading correctly, the only difference between their method and most mammals is how the unborn are nourished: in most mammals, there's the placental connection where the mother provides nourishment, whereas with the sharks and snakes the young are self contained for nourishment (basically a yolk). Fertilization and gas exchange is nearly identical for both the sharks/snakes and mammals... and, again, the live birth.

 

... And then, just to be fair to the overall argument, I suppose... we have the platypus. Lays eggs in nests, but still a mammal. And then we have the echidna, which also lays eggs, but carries the egg in a pouch until it hatches and develops a while before emerging, and females don't have nipples but is still a mammal...

 

...

 

Hrm. Okay, maybe XIV races are mammals that evolved from the echidna?

 

 

You know, this is a good point, and it's interesting to note that apparently sharks have three ways of reproducing! But we're separate from them and snakes because of the presence of hair/fur. The hard and fast definition is pretty clear cut where our characters would fall, based on the limited information we have on reproduction and assumptions that can be made based on the seeming presence of mammary glands.

 

Mammal: any vertebrate of the class Mammalia, having the body more or less covered with hair, nourishing the young with milk from the mammary glands, and, with the exception of the egg-laying monotremes, giving birth to live young.

 

Of course, that's a really, really basic definition and I'm pretty sure it doesn't take into account any animals that happen to be defined as "mammals" yet don't follow those hard and fast rules. Dolphins have some hair around the tip of their "beak" before birth (and I think sometimes shortly after?), but don't have any in their adult life. Interestingly enough, whales apparently do have hair though; or at the very least they have hair follicles.

 

So assuming our characters aren't some sort of deviation from the natural order (hello platypus!), we can infer that they WOULD be mammals because of the presence of hair, mammary glands, internal spine (we're definitely not bugs or something), and quest text that implies we have live birth as compared to egg laying. But at the same time, there's technically nothing that explicitly states that Eorzean biology is the same as Earth biology.

[Dat Oni]

Part of me understands this thread to an extent.

 

The other part of me is having difficulty comprehending why boobs are a bad thing.

Did... did someone try to suggest that? If someone did, I don't remember reading it.

 

It was a joke based on one of your prior statements.

The whole thing with non-mammalian mammaries really ticks me off. 

 

I mean, you're not even trying at that point. It's completely lazy to the point of being insulting. If you're gonna do non-human races at all you better do it right! (Hence why I love Iksar and Asura so much more than I do, say, Argonians...)

 

However, the rest of that post...I wanted to cite artists like SYRSA who use breasts for all kinds of purposes in their work, but I know, in your head, if you slap tits on a nonhuman, it's "lazy" and "insulting", so I'm not even going to bother. I recognize a quest of futility when I see it.

 

I will, however, point out that by stating you know what the right way to do non-humans is, you are opening up a can of worms, because that in and of itself is a whole 'nother argument, one not on-topic for this thread.

 

And of course, FFXIV has the example of Lalafells, where you literally cannot tell the difference between a male and female character if they're wearing full armor (especially with a covering helmet on).  Their appeal does not seem to suffer any for it.

 

I can actually tell the difference. It's pretty easy for me. Though, my Lala, Koporo Aporo, has been called a girl both OOCly and ICly multiple freaking times, so I must be gifted or something.

[FreelanceWizard]

I can actually tell the difference. It's pretty easy for me. Though, my Lala, Koporo Aporo, has been called a girl both OOCly and ICly multiple freaking times, so I must be gifted or something.

 

Confession time: I'm terrible at telling lalafell apart. it's actually something of a joke IC and OOC, especially given how much time L'yhta spends around lalafell...

[Ilwe'ran]

Pretty sure someone said it before : Characters have a navel in game. Navel comes from cutting the umbilical cord which is linked to placenta.

Placentalia is a group of mammal as far as I know.. I can be wrong but, for me, rather than any physical obvious stuff such as breasts, the navel is saying that the characters are mammals.

[Zyrusticae]

It was a joke based on one of your prior statements.

The whole thing with non-mammalian mammaries really ticks me off. 

 

I mean, you're not even trying at that point. It's completely lazy to the point of being insulting. If you're gonna do non-human races at all you better do it right! (Hence why I love Iksar and Asura so much more than I do, say, Argonians...)

 

However, the rest of that post...I wanted to cite artists like SYRSA who use breasts for all kinds of purposes in their work, but I know, in your head, if you slap tits on a nonhuman, it's "lazy" and "insulting", so I'm not even going to bother. I recognize a quest of futility when I see it.

 

I will, however, point out that by stating you know what the right way to do non-humans is, you are opening up a can of worms, because that in and of itself is a whole 'nother argument, one not on-topic for this thread.

It's on-topic enough. Every thread is going to have its tangents, and this is one of them (especially this thread, even). Let the Great Wizard be the final arbiter of that.

 

Anyway, it seems you misunderstand something. I don't simply mean all non-humans, but I do mean all non-human non-mammals. And yes, I do consider it lazy because, look, if you want to stick tits on something, it's easy. REALLY easy. It takes absolutely no thought at all. It's done all the time on a very regular basis. I pretty much consider it lazy (and by extension, an insult of my intelligence) for the same reasons I consider the ubiquitous bikini armor lazy: it's EVERYWHERE, and it's only done for really base sexual appeal and that's it. It's extremely transparent and no one of sound mind is getting fooled by that.

 

It's not that I have something against boobs or sex appeal per se. No, of course not. As Jancis pointed out, I even have my character kitted out in said bikini armor. But the thing is, that was just one choice I could have made of many - and there are many, many ways you can try to make something non-human appealing without immediately trying to appeal to the male (and homosexual female) libido. And that's a LOT more difficult and challenging than just sticking boobs on her and calling it a day.

 

It's also a problem of representation - you know adult women with extremely small (or even nonexistent) breasts exist, right? In large numbers, even? Now try counting up the number of video games out there that let you play one, or even include one as a side character. Now try counting up the number of games that do so where the female character in question isn't (or doesn't resemble) a child. It's not pretty. Even moreso when you consider that a lot of said women are of the athletic variety that really, really should be used as a reference for body shapes more often but for some reason are not.

 

That, honestly, makes me angry. There's a really nasty undercurrent here that suggests that grown women just can't possibly be attractive or noteworthy unless they have breasts. Usually big ones. (And while I'm at it, this is particularly annoying considering that over half of all men find very small breasts sexually attractive, making it particularly unnecessary.)

 

So, you know... I want less lazy, thoughtless mammary spam in games and more thought, more nuance, more variety. Hell, it would be nice if more developers simply acknowledged that we exist. We already have big breasts stretching as far as and well beyond the horizon at this point, so what's the harm in trying something different, eh? How bad can it be, really?

 

In short,

 

And less of this.

 

That's all.

I can actually tell the difference. It's pretty easy for me. Though, my Lala, Koporo Aporo, has been called a girl both OOCly and ICly multiple freaking times, so I must be gifted or something.

Well... yeah.