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Aether: When is enough, enough?


Enteris

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My apologies if such a discussion already exists within these forums somewhere, but this has been something plaguing my mind and I'm curious to see people's thoughts. Now, before we get into this, please note that it is my intention to hold a discussion, not start a flame or pissing war. As such, please keep posts constructive and on point, rather than diving into personal attacks.

 

Surfing through these forums lately, a lot of posts have come up regarding different issues within the game world. Dragoon's jumping, contraceptives, healing, strength of a lalafell and a number of other things. Within these threads, a common answer continues to pop up: aether.

 

Now, I understand aether is like the life stream, it's naturally in (pretty much) everyone and everything. It is a source of power for many of our character's abilities and attributes.

 

... but when is enough, enough?

 

Often times, when discussing the issues mentioned above, the answer "because aether" is often brought up. This, to me, often seems like a cop out and is liken to saying "because magic." Along with this argument, a quick accompaniment of "the lore doesn't explicitly say xyz, so it works!" pops up. 

 

Where is the limit? When do we say that, even though the lore says nothing for or against the topic, aether really isn't a good explanation? If Bob McBobberson says that he's capable of spinning indefinately through the air in a kicking fashion (Ryu from street fighter) through the use of his aether do we have to accept that since, to my knowledge, there's nothing in lore stating that he can't? And if so, since there's nothing in lore stating I can't, can I then turn around and say my character is capable of cloning himself through the use of aether and instantaneously tranfering his entire being to a clone the instant he dies? Lore doesn't say I can't... so maybe I can?

 

This is the problem we run into. Often times I see people argue "because aether" to explain a reason their character is capable of doing something, but aren't willing to put a limit on it. Or they're not willing to accept another person's "because aether" for their own character. Or, often times, the whole realism vs. fantasy (because aether) argument gets thrown around.

 

Where's the line? How much aether does it take to do such things? How much aether is a person capable of holding/controlling/storing? Does it differ between the races? 

 

Where do we draw the line between "because aether" and realism?

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My apologies if such a discussion already exists within these forums somewhere, but this has been something plaguing my mind and I'm curious to see people's thoughts. Now, before we get into this, please note that it is my intention to hold a discussion, not start a flame or pissing war. As such, please keep posts constructive and on point, rather than diving into personal attacks.

 

Surfing through these forums lately, a lot of posts have come up regarding different issues within the game world. Dragoon's jumping, contraceptives, healing, strength of a lalafell and a number of other things. Within these threads, a common answer continues to pop up: aether.

 

Now, I understand aether is like the life stream, it's naturally in (pretty much) everyone and everything. It is a source of power for many of our character's abilities and attributes.

 

... but when is enough, enough?

 

Often times, when discussing the issues mentioned above, the answer "because aether" is often brought up. This, to me, often seems like a cop out and is liken to saying "because magic." Along with this argument, a quick accompaniment of "the lore doesn't explicitly say xyz, so it works!" pops up. 

 

Where is the limit? When do we say that, even though the lore says nothing for or against the topic, aether really isn't a good explanation? If Bob McBobberson says that he's capable of spinning indefinately through the air in a kicking fashion (Ryu from street fighter) through the use of his aether do we have to accept that since, to my knowledge, there's nothing in lore stating that he can't? And if so, since there's nothing in lore stating I can't, can I then turn around and say my character is capable of cloning himself through the use of aether and instantaneously tranfering his entire being to a clone the instant he dies? Lore doesn't say I can't... so maybe I can?

 

This is the problem we run into. Often times I see people argue "because aether" to explain a reason their character is capable of doing something, but aren't willing to put a limit on it. Or they're not willing to accept another person's "because aether" for their own character. Or, often times, the whole realism vs. fantasy (because aether) argument gets thrown around.

 

Where's the line? How much aether does it take to do such things? How much aether is a person capable of holding/controlling/storing? Does it differ between the races? 

 

Where do we draw the line between "because aether" and realism?

Wherever we wish to, based on the purpose of our narrative.

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What Berrod said.

 

You limit or expand upon it based upon whatever requirements or necessities there are for your narrative. This does not mean everyone will agree on what betters your narrative which is why OOC communication will come to play. What does one player belief? What do others? if there's disagreements, what can be compromised to still do the narrative justice?

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I personally draw the line at what is actually represented in the game in some form or fashion.

 

For example, all class and job abilities are fair game. Some less so than others (Dragonfire Dive, Holy, and Flare being the prime examples) but generally speaking, if a PC can do it in the game, it's fair to say a player can do it in their RP.

 

Cloning oneself would require a far more detailed explanation because the only representation of cloning in the game makes use of high (Allagan) technology, hence it is a different matter entirely.

 

Similarly, a player being able to fly at-will is simply not something that is done in-universe in any case, so I would also consider that a non-starter.

 

I personally use aether as an explanation for all the outrageous things that actually happen in the game in combat and such, rather than a justification for things that I make up on the spot. That being said, I do also like to imagine and speculate about what other things aether could be used for, but that's more of an imaginative and/or intellectual exercise than anything else.

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The limit is where we draw it. Since "we" consists of a huge tenet of different people with different philosophies with different opinions, there's no clear answer. If a group of people are roleplaying a martial arts tournament and someone wants to homage Ryu and kick someone with the Hurricane Kick, that's par for the course and not entirely impossible given how flexible the lore can be. If that person then walks into the middle of the Quicksand and attempts to do that, stirring up trouble...

 

Well, that'd go over as well as we all think it would.

 

There's nothing wrong with clever use of the loose lore. Everyone's going to have differing opinions on how things work if they aren't explained; Hell, that's the basis for real-world science and physics isn't it? The difference is we can't experiment to find out, so we're stuck arguing in circles about what can or can't be done.

 

I'm definitely going to tackle your clone-memory thing though, in a relatively-reasonable way.

 

Voidsent return to the void with their memories intact. Voidsent can possess people. Possessed people should in theory lend their knowledge and memories to the voidsent possessing someone. Fantasia can be used (maybe, depends on who you ask) to render someone's appearance differently.

 

I present to you the story of a voidsent who possessed someone, let's say someone like Otto Vann. Otto's world is made up of drugs, women, and finery. That sure as hell beats the Void! Demon Otto uses his considerable wealth to hire a body double and acquires enough Fantasia to make the transformation utterly complete. Then Demon Otto suddenly dies in a Syndicate plot to usurp his power.

 

Voidsent returns to the nether. Eventually he claws his way back into the real world. Otto's double has been living Otto's life, since the real deal was dead, and went along with the charade. Demon then possesses new Otto and reclaims his vessel, sort of.

 

How's that?

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I tend to try to limit my usage of "aether" as an explanation to situations that involve what aether is presented to be used for - magic and magical effects. Black Magic, White Magic, Arcanima, Summoning... all of that is easily pointed to as using aether.

 

In the MNK story quest, unlocked chakras are also tentatively linked to aether through the quest-giver. So, a lot of the superhuman aspects of MNKs I can explain away as tapping into one's one aether. Inner Beast could possibly fall under this. By extension, you could also consider any great feats of strength to either training or using one's natural aetheric resources (possibly one allowing you to do the other!)

 

What I try to avoid doing is using aether as the stopgap reasoning for things in place of a more thought out solution. If it can be reasonably explained with aether, that's fine. Using aether as the equivalent of a shrug, though, not so much.

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Where do we draw the line between "because aether" and realism?

 

You write the words "Aether" and "Realism" next to each other.

 

You then draw one circle around them.

 

That is the line.

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First..

 

e_DqV1xdf-Y

 

Now with that out of the way.

 

Ask not how much power, or even how it works. Instead ask what you do with it.

 

We each are responsible for playing in a cooperative RP setting and all want something from this. So explain what you do and make the effects plausible and able to progress the RP, creating depth, colour and opportunity for others to RP with.

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"Aether" is a deus ex machina created by the lore and storytellers of the FFXIV development team in an attempt to simplify physics in a game where a wound heals with light and little people can summon a comet as a LB. Since it is such it became the basic "realism" of the game for RPers as that is the established reality of the game. Its not that a RPer is lazy I think when they say "because... aether". Its just the only real flushed out tool in this game as laws of physics go. So don't blame the RPer if they say it, at least they aren't saying "because.... Echo".

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I won't discover America by saying that you should do whatever you like, as long as you have other people on your mind. Doesn't matter, Aether or anything else - when RP-ing, one needs to always think "Will that be fun not only for me, but for people around me as well?". Perso-anally, I am IC'ly careful around people I haven't befriended, carefully managing my character's ultra powahs so that nobody will cringe.

 

So, yeah, long story short; to me, enough is when it messes with people's fun.

 

:tonberry:

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You have to consider as well the respective setting being played. This is Eorzea. Compared to the Garleans we are backwater ignorami with minimal understanding of the sciences. What if people blaming everything on aether is just a lack of immediate knowledge of biology, chemistry and even magic?

 

Dragooon jumping? That probably is aether. Its a superhuman feat. Contraception? Almost certainly a wonder of chemistry in a time of alchemy. Furthermore, the mere existence of aether means physics are different here. Not that Eorzeans can grasp advanced physics either!

 

Don't see it as lazy writing, see it as wistful, nostalgic ignorance to natural processes. Like a body having humours or a flat world or believing in posessing demons instead of mental illness.

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You have to consider as well the respective setting being played.  This is Eorzea.  Compared to the Garleans we are backwater ignorami with minimal understanding of the sciences.  What if people blaming everything on aether is just a lack of immediate knowledge of biology, chemistry and even magic?  

 

Dragooon jumping?  That probably is aether.  Its a superhuman feat.  Contraception?  Almost certainly a wonder of chemistry in a time of alchemy.  Furthermore, the mere existence of aether means physics are different here.  Not that Eorzeans can grasp advanced physics either!

 

Don't see it as lazy writing, see it as wistful, nostalgic ignorance to natural processes.  Like a body having humours or a flat world or believing in posessing demons instead of mental illness.

 

Yep, this is much how I feel about Aether as a whole, from what I've been reading!

 

Personally, I try and stick to realism as much as possible, because I not only find it to be occasionally an interesting challenge, but also something that can lead to danger or intrigue in roleplay. Walking off every battle due to abnormal regeneration rates would leave me feeling like I were yearning for consequences. Likewise, if someone doesn't care for my perspective, I can respect it, I simply will do as I find most fulfilling in roleplay. :D

 

I'd only ever use Aether as an absolute last resort, personally, but I similarly imagine class abilities to be fully accessible by players as it is in game. (There's a lot of grey areas, given, but I suppose I rather trust those I roleplay with to make a fair call on when to use or how to explain such!)

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I try to go by the whole "Just because you potentially could, doesn't mean you should" sort of way. When it comes to small scale things I tend to take more liberties with the loopholes in the lore (That being the complete greyzones of that something hints at something but then nothing is clearly saying for or against a certain thing) because they are elements that only affect my character and maybe one or two more. On top of that, I never mention what these things are oocly to anyone else but the people involved, cause I know they're on board with jumping through the chosen loophole. I'd never take liberties like that with anything major, like, you wouldn't find one of my characters inventing a new branch of magic on the grounds of that there isn't anything saying that one couldn't. Elements used in fights go in the same box. World changing stuff and things that affect a lot of people - That's not my job, that's the lore-dev teams job, and if I wanted to do it I would have to find some way to get them to mention it in the worlds lore/history/whatever.

 

To me stuff like that comes closer to being a style choice. If someone wants to reason everything with Aether, then that's their take on things. It's just very unfortunate when people go out and say "My take is the only right way" instead of just accepting that it's a take that doesn't fall in with everyone's style. I think FC's should always be on the same page internally, but getting a whole community to agree on the same thing is never going to happen. Some people like to be freespirited and have pet dragons, and other people like myself like to not do things that don't seem right with the setting/lore (To the point where if I find out I fucked up I will retcon/change things about to un-fuck it.) So to me you can't reason everything with Aether, and there's a line somewhere

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Chugging a bunch of it in consumable form is implied to get you really high, so I'd say around that point you've probably had enou--

 

Oh. Oh that's not what you meant.

 

Well.

 

 

 

 

Personally, I feel there's a difference between taking something in the game-world that seems impossible and explaining it with a magical in-game force, and going, "oh, I need this hitherto-unknown Weird / Rare / Special Thing for X-Reason. Aether can make this thing a thing, right? Right." One is just coming up with an explanation for a thing that we don't know about. The other one smells more like taking a short-cut through provided information instead of trying to work with it.

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Way I see it, everyone has a limited store of aether. Just like we all have a limited supply of blood. Loose too much blood and you go into shock, and can even die. And the conjurer quest line even touched on this. It is a shame then that the thaumaturge quest line completely ignored that, and instead says the main character uses their internal aether and have an over abundance of it to perform thaumaturge spells.

 

So when it came time to choose, I chose the conjurer path when it came to fire, ice and lightning elements for my character. Relying on the elementals themselves to supply their aether with a little bit of my character's to perform the spells. And because ninja's ninjutsu has something from all six elements, I RP as well... basically a rogue that still utilizes elemental's magic.

 

Also, when it comes to Aether, intaking too much aether, I take an FF7 approach. In FF7, when the character fell into the lifestream, he had a lifestream sickness. So my character doesn't ingest stuff that is aether enhanced, because of the inherent dangers of getting aether sickness. In fact, I believe one of the quests in the game even gave mention of aether sickness, I just can't for the life of me, remember which lol.

 

Also when it comes to Aetheryte travel, one to two teleports is my character's IC limit per day. Most of the time she rides a mount, takes a ship or an airship to get where she needs to be.

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Also, when it comes to Aether, intaking too much aether, I take an FF7 approach. In FF7, when the character fell into the lifestream, he had a lifestream sickness. So my character doesn't ingest stuff that is aether enhanced, because of the inherent dangers of getting aether sickness. In fact, I believe one of the quests in the game even gave mention of aether sickness, I just can't for the life of me, remember which lol.

 

I think you're referring to what the MC is mentioned of having at the very start of the MSQ, the "explanation" for why they're so woozy upon arrival. It gets touched on here and there as you progress through the story, culminating in the revelation that the MC had actually awakened to the Echo. Though, that also implies that normal aether sickness is a thing - unless it's all a cover-up used to protect the identity of Echo-users. :tonberry:

 

... Or you could be talking about an entirely different instance and I'm completely off track. Either or.

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Chugging a bunch of it in consumable form is implied to get you really high, so I'd say around that point you've probably had enou--

 

Oh. Oh that's not what you meant.

 

Well.

Well, evidently overdosing on aether is actually going to make you sick (assuming aether sickness is actually a thing and not something the guys made up to protect Echo users). And assuming that is true, then actually controlling a huge amount of aether requires some form of training and/or natural aptitude to avoid said sickness.

 

I imagine it's at least partly related to one's own natural aether supply... if your supply is weak and you get invaded by a wave of foreign aether, you probably get extremely nauseous. A truly large surfeit of aether could probably put someone into a coma, FF7-style. It's... well, it's really a lot like your immune system fighting off foreign infections, isn't it?

 

I mean... it's something to think about. It could all be a cover story! A white lie! Or it could actually be a thing... hmmm, that's a problem. Need more concrete information. Too much muddiness. Clarity is necessary when trying to come up with hard and fast rules and we don't have that right now...

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Bruh, why are you trying to explain the "Force" in some pseudo scientific fashion?

 

Star Wars never did that, wait, fuck.

 

:throws up hands and walks out:

 

http://www.nooooooooooooooo.com/

I can see the refrence in this actually. Aether (in FFXIV) and Mediclorians (or however its spelled in star wars) are basically part of the fundamental building blocks of not only all living things but also a vital part of living beings.

 

By FFXIV standards though, Aether vary's between person to person. Some people are born with large natural inner reserves of Aether, allowing them to become things like mage's and wizard's while those born with a pitiful level of Aether often become warriors and swordsmen if not tradesman.

 

Even then though, you would still need to go through 'hell training' in order to increase you're natural reserves. It's kinda like bodybuilding. You wont get strong from going to the gym once a month when you should go once a week. You get strong because you excersize you're Aether muscles every day. This translates over into the level system where as you level up and youre natural Aether reserves increase.

 

So really, there are already plenty of limit's to Aether in game. It is not a handwave possible solution (unless everyone is okay with it) because even if you are born with a decent amount, you still need to train and excersize youre aether muscles to increase youre reserves. The same goes for melee fighting characters like warrior, monk and Dragoon, where you will probably have to go through 'hell training' to get very powerful.

 

And even then, if you tried to aim to be the strongest you can be, it would take forever from a realism standpoint to become so intensely powerful.

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Chugging a bunch of it in consumable form is implied to get you really high, so I'd say around that point you've probably had enou--

 

Oh. Oh that's not what you meant.

 

Well.

Well, evidently overdosing on aether is actually going to make you sick (assuming aether sickness is actually a thing and not something the guys made up to protect Echo users). And assuming that is true, then actually controlling a huge amount of aether requires some form of training and/or natural aptitude to avoid said sickness.

 

 

BAD TRIP MAN

 

BAD TRIP

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