FF15: Men or Dolls?

[Shoshopu]

No one here is trying to push an ideal of "how to man." Jesus christ.

 

Well, nevermind that the thread title is literally "men or dolls", not "men and dolls" or "men who look like dolls"...

 

So what? It's a title. Are you really getting hung up on limited character length? What do you usually associate with dolls that is getting you hung up? I guess Ninja Turtles and GI Joe aren't dolls they are "action figures."

 

Lmfao. It's gonna be okay.

No, I'm not getting hung up over character length, but you seem to be getting pretty upset that this thread isn't just full of people who are with you on this one, is all. And trying hard not to look upset. I know it's gonna be okay-- I think you're projecting a little onto that one statement I made and assuming a lot about why I said it.

 

I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since I don't have an opinion one way or the other in FFXV, I just felt compelled to make an observation.

[Clover]

Erm... I haven't read the whole thread, but the very first page is disturbing.

 

Basically, Western people with Western tastes complaining about Japanese tastes? Why aren't you playing Western games then? (?_?)

It's not that the "bishounen" type is an FF thing. They are just the kind of boy that's liked in Japan, which (luckily) differs greatly from the kind of males that are liked in Western lands.

 

Thanks god, no one's personal taste on men is any sort of universal law, so please don't speak as if yours were *falls over*.

[Artigan]

No one here is trying to push an ideal of "how to man." Jesus christ.

 

Well, nevermind that the thread title is literally "men or dolls", not "men and dolls" or "men who look like dolls"...

 

So what? It's a title. Are you really getting hung up on limited character length? What do you usually associate with dolls that is getting you hung up? I guess Ninja Turtles and GI Joe aren't dolls they are "action figures."

 

Lmfao. It's gonna be okay.

No, I'm not getting hung up over character length, but you seem to be getting pretty upset that this thread isn't just full of people who are with you on this one, is all. And trying hard not to look upset. I know it's gonna be okay-- I think you're projecting a little onto that one statement I made and assuming a lot about why I said it.

 

I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since I don't have an opinion one way or the other in FFXV, I just felt compelled to make an observation.

 

Bruh, I'm not even tripping. I'm trying to understand your train of thought.

 

You are the one pointing out how the title isn't conforming to a perceived standard or norm. You are in fact claiming it is deviant based on your reaction. Obviously you are taking an issue with how I titled the topic. So what is your issue?

[Artigan]

Erm... I haven't read the whole thread, but the very first page is disturbing.

 

Basically, Western people with Western tastes complaining about Japanese tastes? Why aren't you playing Western games then? (?_?)

It's not that the "bishounen" type is an FF thing. They are just the kind of boy that's liked in Japan, which (luckily) differs greatly from the kind of males that are liked in Western lands.

 

Thanks god, no one's personal taste on men is any sort of universal law, so please don't speak as if yours were *falls over*.

You must hate critiques.

[Kellach Woods]

The FF series did fall into a trend of "pretty boy" heroes when graphics started to become par for the course. Not liking effeminate male protagonists isn't equatable to hating effeminate men, wishing ill on such individuals, and thinking they are sub-par or lesser for it.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

Okay that was good. Do me a favor and check out FF2's Firion in official art (as in the famicom original box art bruh). Or Cecil. Or Bartz.

[Aaron]

Im still gonna play FF XV when it comes out though, Noctis looks badass as fuck with all that dark themed color and that EPIC ASS ability with all those weapons. 

 

 

Sooo. . . How about them gravity defying hairstyles?

[Kellach Woods]

Sooo. . . How about them gravity defying hairstyles?

I play Paul Phoenix in Tekken. Come at me with your gravity defiance.

[Tiergan]

One day SE will design a hairspray brand that allows people to have hair that defies the very laws of the world and will make millions.

[Berrod Armstrong]

When did the ideologues creep in? No one stated: a real man is x, y, and z. One individual made an off-handed quip about playing masculine men. The cast of FF15 is easily to date the most effeminate cast of the entire series and of the bourgeois class.

 

The second post was merely illustrating how the main character Noctis bares a striking resemblance to Sasuke from Naruto.

 

No one here is trying to push an ideal of "how to man." Jesus christ.

 

I know this will blow people's minds: it's okay to have an opinion and dislike something based purely on aesthetics and not be a "monster" for it.

 

I personally, which wasn't even the topic of the thread, don't care for effeminate male heroes, stuck in their late teens or early to mid twenties with all the social grace of a introvert and displaying the wisdom of an elder (it is rather unbelievable and disconnecting). It's just not my cup of tea.

 

I didn't like Vann (Granted Vann is a extrovert with disillusions of grandeur, and holding onto a vendetta) in 12 for that reason, and why Basch, Balthier, and Fran were my main cast.

 

The FF series did fall into a trend of "pretty boy" heroes when graphics started to become par for the course. Not liking effeminate male protagonists isn't equatable to hating effeminate men, wishing ill on such individuals, and thinking they are sub-par or lesser for it.

 

Each to their own. I won't be buying  FF15 for many reasons, but that is simply 1 of the reasons why.

 

Also, so what if someone says: their are too many pretty boys in this game. How is that concerning? No one here said it is immoral or unethical.

Hmm. I don't think I responded to your original post -- my own post could be considered off topic then. 

 

Regarding the cast, I agree there. They are all -mostly- pretty boys. The term 'pretty boy' doesn't really translate into effeminate to me. It just means a man who looks...pretty. Not my cup of juice (that's a lie, I'll take all comers), but eh, I wouldn't avoid the game for it. Well, providing I was going to get it in the first place. 

 

The statement I made still stands, though it was a response to another post. 

 

They might even be due for some pretty boys with Bara Fantasy XIV over here.

[Artigan]

The FF series did fall into a trend of "pretty boy" heroes when graphics started to become par for the course. Not liking effeminate male protagonists isn't equatable to hating effeminate men, wishing ill on such individuals, and thinking they are sub-par or lesser for it.

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

 

Okay that was good. Do me a favor and check out FF2's Firion in official art (as in the famicom original box art bruh). Or Cecil. Or Bartz.

 

Cecil wasn't the entire cast man, and Edge and Kain aren't depicted in anyway to be effeminate, and Cecil having long hair and purple lips when he goes Paladin didn't strike me as effeminate, but more so eccentric.

 

Bartz character concept art at release didn't depicted him as effeminate, but more so a wander, only since Dissidia did he become some what of a pretty boy.

 

Firion is a pretty boy, and their is nothing wrong with that, and his whole party wasn't some cast that fell out of a E-Hollywood pretty people only line up.

[Kellach Woods]

Just gotta have healthy hair and lots of prep.

[Clover]

You must hate critiques.

 

Critiques about how the personal tastes from other cultures are wrong? Well, yes...

 

(Interesting avatar, by the way).

[Kellach Woods]

I'm still not seeing how vastly effeminate they all are though.

[Shoshopu]

No one here is trying to push an ideal of "how to man." Jesus christ.

 

Well, nevermind that the thread title is literally "men or dolls", not "men and dolls" or "men who look like dolls"...

 

So what? It's a title. Are you really getting hung up on limited character length? What do you usually associate with dolls that is getting you hung up? I guess Ninja Turtles and GI Joe aren't dolls they are "action figures."

 

Lmfao. It's gonna be okay.

No, I'm not getting hung up over character length, but you seem to be getting pretty upset that this thread isn't just full of people who are with you on this one, is all. And trying hard not to look upset. I know it's gonna be okay-- I think you're projecting a little onto that one statement I made and assuming a lot about why I said it.

 

I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since I don't have an opinion one way or the other in FFXV, I just felt compelled to make an observation.

 

Bruh, I'm not even tripping. I'm trying to understand your train of thought.

 

You are the one pointing out how the title isn't conforming to a perceived standard or norm.  You are in fact claiming it is deviant based on your reaction. Obviously you are taking an issue with how I titled the topic. So what is your issue?

Well, since you asked, I'll bite, but I feel like it's obvious.

 

The use of "or" makes "men" and "dolls" sound mutually exclusive. Which kinda makes me scratch my head when you point at masculine dolls and go "Look! Men can be dolls!" when I point that out. Alright, this is true, so was the implication intentional?

 

It doesn't seem relevant to the point you're trying to make in the thread here, either. Do you associate plastic people with "emo", "pretty boy" and "bourgeois"? Do most people? I don't, but I'm not most people, so.

 

If you feel like people are taking the wrong meaning from what you're trying to say, perhaps consider how you've worded it.

[Artigan]

When did the ideologues creep in? No one stated: a real man is x, y, and z. One individual made an off-handed quip about playing masculine men. The cast of FF15 is easily to date the most effeminate cast of the entire series and of the bourgeois class.

 

The second post was merely illustrating how the main character Noctis bares a striking resemblance to Sasuke from Naruto.

 

No one here is trying to push an ideal of "how to man." Jesus christ.

 

I know this will blow people's minds: it's okay to have an opinion and dislike something based purely on aesthetics and not be a "monster" for it.

 

I personally, which wasn't even the topic of the thread, don't care for effeminate male heroes, stuck in their late teens or early to mid twenties with all the social grace of a introvert and displaying the wisdom of an elder (it is rather unbelievable and disconnecting). It's just not my cup of tea.

 

I didn't like Vann (Granted Vann is a extrovert with disillusions of grandeur, and holding onto a vendetta) in 12 for that reason, and why Basch, Balthier, and Fran were my main cast.

 

The FF series did fall into a trend of "pretty boy" heroes when graphics started to become par for the course. Not liking effeminate male protagonists isn't equatable to hating effeminate men, wishing ill on such individuals, and thinking they are sub-par or lesser for it.

 

Each to their own. I won't be buying  FF15 for many reasons, but that is simply 1 of the reasons why.

 

Also, so what if someone says: their are too many pretty boys in this game. How is that concerning? No one here said it is immoral or unethical.

Hmm. I don't think I responded to your original post -- my own post could be considered off topic then. 

 

Regarding the cast, I agree there. They are all -mostly- pretty boys. The term 'pretty boy' doesn't really translate into effeminate to me. It just means a man who looks...pretty. Not my cup of juice (that's a lie, I'll take all comers), but eh, I wouldn't avoid the game for it. Well, providing I was going to get it in the first place. 

 

The statement I made still stands, though it was a response to another post. 

 

They might even be due for some pretty boys with Bara Fantasy XIV over here.

 

My issue is personally I like games were you have a cast of all types: pretty, ugly, handsome, gorgeous, average, and so on.

 

I get it is fantasy, but I just don't care for games that have a bunch of Barbies and Kens as the heroes.

 

It's just a personal beef, and my anecdotal definition of pretty boy is thus to clarify confusion: a man who is well groomed, stylish, and sporting fine wares and jewelery, and shows little to no body hair or scars.

[Artigan]

You must hate critiques.

 

Critiques about how the personal tastes from other cultures are wrong? Well, yes...

 

(Interesting avatar, by the way).

 

Did I state they are wrong? Do you make up stuff in your head?

[Aaron]

Sooo. . . How about them gravity defying hairstyles?

I play Paul Phoenix in Tekken. Come at me with your gravity defiance.

I play Goku from Dragon Ball Z

 

Your move bro.

[Artigan]

 

Well, nevermind that the thread title is literally "men or dolls", not "men and dolls" or "men who look like dolls"...

 

So what? It's a title. Are you really getting hung up on limited character length? What do you usually associate with dolls that is getting you hung up? I guess Ninja Turtles and GI Joe aren't dolls they are "action figures."

 

Lmfao. It's gonna be okay.

No, I'm not getting hung up over character length, but you seem to be getting pretty upset that this thread isn't just full of people who are with you on this one, is all. And trying hard not to look upset. I know it's gonna be okay-- I think you're projecting a little onto that one statement I made and assuming a lot about why I said it.

 

I probably shouldn't be posting in this thread since I don't have an opinion one way or the other in FFXV, I just felt compelled to make an observation.

 

Bruh, I'm not even tripping. I'm trying to understand your train of thought.

 

You are the one pointing out how the title isn't conforming to a perceived standard or norm.  You are in fact claiming it is deviant based on your reaction. Obviously you are taking an issue with how I titled the topic. So what is your issue?

Well, since you asked, I'll bite, but I feel like it's obvious.

 

The use of "or" makes "men" and "dolls" sound mutually exclusive. Which kinda makes me scratch my head when you point at masculine dolls and go "Look! Men can be dolls!" when I point that out. Alright, this is true, so was the implication intentional?

 

It doesn't seem relevant to the point you're trying to make in the thread here, either. Do you associate plastic people with "emo", "pretty boy" and "bourgeois"? Do most people? I don't, but I'm not most people, so.

 

If you feel like people are taking the wrong meaning from what you're trying to say, perhaps consider how you've worded it.

 

This is entirely irrelevant and a personal issue and interpretation. A title doesn't explain much of anything and can be serious, satirical, or ironic. If you don't like it you don't like it. If you're confused you could always ask for a clarification, but getting hung up on a title is silly.

 

Men or Dolls? Yes, the cast is a bunch of plastic perfect dolls. I hardly see any asymmetry, flaws, or realism. So what is wrong with the title again?

[Oli!]

Of the myriad complaints a Final Fantasy game can have, "too pretty male characters" is a confusing one to have...and the insinuations being bandied about in this thread are...worrying, to put it lightly.

This.

 

To be fair, the designs are not exactly my favorite either, because the cast looks like slightly tweaked versions of either characters ripped off from other franchises (Hello Sauske!), characters from all their previous games, or are just... pretty bland designs in general.  There isn't really a single one that sticks out in my head as memorable looking except Noctis and its because, again, I can't stop thinking of him as Sauske: The FFXV version.

 

I thought this was what we were complaining about anyway.

 

I don't care about whether the characters look bulky or not. I care about the fact that they all look the same. XIII had this problem at times too.

 

Yawn.

[Artigan]

I'm still not seeing how vastly effeminate they all are though.

 

Perception, but the normative for a masculine or effeminate male in our respective cultures is going to vary. I see the cast as rather effeminate: fine clothes and jewelry, stylish hair dues that have to be gelled or hairspray to hell, a lack of body hair, and so on. You can equate the word pretty boy to them as well. Nothing wrong with being "pretty" but it has become a trend in the series, and I would label the cast as "pretty boys."

[Zyrusticae]

The amusing thing about all this is that it's the reverse of the kind of bullshit female players have had to put up with for a long, long time.

 

That is to say, the guys are all very, very obviously made to be highly attractive, and in a big way, towards heterosexual female sensibilities. This makes some guys uncomfortable in the same way heavily sexualized women in games makes women uncomfortable. It's a bit of comeuppance and it is something I am highly appreciative of.

 

Of course, they then release Cidney who sports D-cup breasts spilling out of a push-up bra with an unzipped jacket and then all of that good will is undone, but...

 

At any rate, if your argument is that you want a more varied cast, why are you so heavily focused on the 'pretty boy' aspects of the cast as opposed to their homogeneity? It's a very telling choice of words.

[Clover]

Let's all agree that everything comes down to different tastes and different cultures. To me, all Western main (and secondary) characters look exactly the same too.

 

Edit: Zyrus, wiser words have never been spoken *amused*.

[Artigan]

I think it is a fair critique to say the cast is too dollish. If we are going to compare games I would say Dragon Age the series (yes even 2) had a variety of individuals that catered to many tastes.

 

Now anyone can also say, fairly, FF15 isn't for you. Nothing wrong with exclusivity.

[Oli!]

I think their words / title were intended to be read as "am I alone in thinking that the cast of this newest installment focuses too much on visual attractiveness as opposed to varied, interesting character design, something which we have oft looked forward to in Final Fantasy for many years?"

 

And I think that's a fair complaint. Though the game's style seems drab in general to me anyway. Could they have stated their intent better? Sure, I guess so, but I don't think they're intentionally being a bigot or anything.

 

It's Kool guise.

[Artigan]

The amusing thing about all this is that it's the reverse of the kind of bullshit female players have had to put up with for a long, long time.

 

That is to say, the guys are all very, very obviously made to be highly attractive, and in a big way, towards heterosexual female sensibilities. This makes some guys uncomfortable in the same way heavily sexualized women in games makes women uncomfortable. It's a bit of comeuppance and it is something I am highly appreciative of.

 

Of course, they then release Cidney who sports D-cup breasts spilling out of a push-up bra with an unzipped jacket and then all of that good will is undone, but...

 

At any rate, if your argument is that you want a more varied cast, why are you so heavily focused on the 'pretty boy' aspects of the cast as opposed to their homogeneity? It's a very telling choice of words.

 

Because I care for realistic casts, and you are assuming that I am somehow unhinged or disturbed by such a pretty cast is an assumption.

 

Stop assuming my wants, intentions, or desires. Their is nothing telling other than what I've said or stated which is: too many dolls. Assumptions are logical fallacies. So stop assuming because you are becoming logically inconsistent and going off into smoke screens of gender normative, inserting red herrings of "Cidney" and "big breasted" and how women are by in large sexualized in media. Take your ideological rhetorical bullshit somewhere else. I have no issues if someone wants to objectify because we objectify all the time; individuals can either do so in healthy manners or not. 

 

I never argued it is wrong or right to have this many "pretty people." I made a personal statement and voiced a critique: too many pretty boys. I can in fact have an issue with the design choice without having to bring morality into the picture. I can also have the same issues if all I see are big breasted females as the heroine line up, and say to myself: this cast isn't anything resembling life. It's just a bunch of pretty people catering to sex appeal, and fair enough I am not interested in such shallow games.

 

I used a gender to, shocker, define who and what I was talking about, and once again I used the word pretty to clarify who and what I was critiquing. You are turning pretty boy into a dysphemism and now throwing in ierrleveancies of not using "proper" wording of homogeneity? Get off, seriously, what the "fuck" are you going on about now?