Regarding Dark Knight...

[Khadan]

In the end, im really just waiting for what happens after every new class exists for a while.

 

Everyone is one for the beginning. Couple months later they slowly (well majority) go back to other classes (like the Nin influx)

 

I also honestly don't expect a lotta people to have DRK for long. From my experience of getting asked to "tank this dungeon because I hate tanking" I expect the majority to get sick of tanking and the hassle of trying to out aggro ballsy dps.

 

In popularity, I believe of the 3 classes DRK will be the least popular and MCH the most.

 

This can be abbreviated thusly:

 

 

In popularity, I believe of the 3 classes TANK will be the least popular and DPS the most.

 

It's the classic issue with Holy Trinity design: People are intimidated by tanking roles and while they might level it, they won't be using it.

 

Gosh I see tank classes and beeline for them like a fat kid passing the candy aisle. Though I'm hesitating with Dark Knight. Doesn't really feel so innovative to me since we already have a two-handed big-weapon-wielding-tank in the Warrior. I would have preferred to see something that was a bit different. That and my experience with Death Knights means that Paladins and Warriors will finally find common ground in tanking: hatred of Dark Knights.

[Gegenji]

Gosh I see tank classes and beeline for them like a fat kid passing the candy aisle.

 

I... just like being useful. v:blush:v

 

I tend to lean towards healing classes more than tanks, though, if given the chance. Especially in new content, since it's usually just a matter of spamming heals at people to keep them off the floor. Once I actually know the fights and whatnot, I feel more comfortable taking up the tanking role - which I usually get to do since I run stuff with Gogon (SCH) first before doing them with Chachan (PLD).

 

... I tend to just queue up as DPS when I'm feeling lazy or I want to try and knock out some other stuff in the wait, like Ixal dailies.

 

Judge going DRK will effectively be Chachan 2.0 in that regard - I'll have cleared the stuff with BOTH Gogon and Chachan at that point... so when I get there with him, I should hopefully know it well enough to get through without any problems. Party badness notwithstanding.

[Khadan]

Gosh I see tank classes and beeline for them like a fat kid passing the candy aisle.

 

I... just like being useful. v:blush:v

 

I tend to lean towards healing classes more than tanks, though, if given the chance. Especially in new content, since it's usually just a matter of spamming heals at people to keep them off the floor. Once I actually know the fights and whatnot, I feel more comfortable taking up the tanking role - which I usually get to do since I run stuff with Gogon (SCH) first before doing them with Chachan (PLD).

 

... I tend to just queue up as DPS when I'm feeling lazy or I want to try and knock out some other stuff in the wait, like Ixal dailies.

 

Judge going DRK will effectively be Chachan 2.0 in that regard - I'll have cleared the stuff with BOTH Gogon and Chachan at that point... so when I get there with him, I should hopefully know it well enough to get through without any problems. Party badness notwithstanding.

 

Play style choice for me. It helps that I'm pretty damn good at it, too lol. 

[Aaron]

Tanking is the best damn job in the game.

 

I'm keeping you all alive! If you allow me to die you die too! 

 

Heuhuehuehuheuheu

 

Plus that feeling when people /ask/ if you'll pull everything for a full run. Never gets old.

 

I should be a healer but I feel no one would trust me as the parties healer. With good reason too.

[Warren Castille]

I should clarify: I'm referring to the idea that DRK will create a net gain of new tanks somehow. I realize now that wasn't exactly the discussion.

 

People who like to tank like to tank, but it does take a very tailored sort of attitude to be okay with 1) potentially wasting people's time when you do something wrong and everyone dies and 2) being able to tolerate the implied verbal abuse that comes when you make those mistakes.

 

Fear of being called out and harassed is the biggest problem potential new tanks face, and "we" do it "ourselves." It's that sort of thing that makes folks who are intimidated by the notion and then do it anyway stand out that much more. Steel Wolf comes to mind.

 

Sorry for the derail.

[Cynel1]

its Temping for Cyneler when he goes to Ishgard to Fall into Darkness Basically RP a Reverse Cecil Story but i still don't know.

[Telluride]

(EDIT - this was typed out on a horrible laptop keyboard, so forgive the poor typing)

 

The thing is, tanking in FFXIV is objectively more challenging than in most other games I have played.

 

Rift? I loved my Reaver-Tank build (which is pretty much what DRK is sounding like). It worked and was fun to play.

 

LOTRO? I didn't raid with my hobbit Guardian, but again, it was a fun role and it worked.

 

AoC? I had a Dark Templar, and enjoyed playing it as far as I did. I never had trouble holding aggro; I quit playing the class for RP reasons only.

 

SWTOR? I tanked Hard Mode Flashpoints routinely with my Shieldtech Bounty Hunter. The RAIDS were a major challenge for tanks, with lots of tank-swapping, but outside of those? No problem.

 

FFXIV seems to make tanking much harder than any of those games did. I have had much more trouble holding aggro tanking in this one than in any other.

 

But I don't think it's strictly the fault of the tanks, since FFXIV, in my experience, is designed to pull aggro OFF of tanks more so than any of those other games, as far as I've gotten.

 

FFXIV's dps classes strongly lack an Aggro Dump, for one problem. Quelling Strikes, for example, reduces GENERATION of Aggro, but does not seem to reduce the existing level. DRG and MNK do not have a good aggro dump, nor do the healing classes, compared to many other mmos, in which many classes do have something more to help reduce aggro, even if it is a panic button.

 

The result is that at least 90% of aggro management in FFXIV, in my limited experience, rests on the shoulders of the tanks, so much so that they have to fight not just healer and dps, but very often each other.

 

If we want to see more people be comfortable playing TANKS, perhaps SE ought to give more hate management skills to EVERY OTHER CLASS so that dungeons become more a cooperative effort than wondering "can the tank hold hate?"

 

And yes, I consider this very much on topic, related to the posts above. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be a tank, hence not a DRK, until the FFXIV hate system stops demanding so much of the role and spreads the active ability to manage hate to other classes.

 

So, yes, I respect people who enjoy tanking and can do it well. SE admits openly that tanking IS more of a challenge by the tacit addition of extra xp and seals for Tanks in duty finder. A more balanced system wouldn't need so much extra enticement. We all want more tanks because holding hate in FFXIV is a challenge, and I agree with others that a lot of DRKs are going to get ditched at 50 unless roles find more balancing in Heavenward.

 

So, what do we need? Maybe a hate-reducing song for bards (Quelling strikes is NOT a panic button and can't be used that way), a quick aggro-dump for healers (long recharge is ok), and a bodyguard sort of skill, like other games have, that allow Tanks to pick a troublesome party-mate and absorb more hate from them.

 

Give us these, you'll see more people willing to take up the Greatsword and KEEP it. But otherwise, I can't see Heavensward affecting the overall tank population percentage past, oh, two months. Because shotguns are just as cool as swords.

[Chris Ganale]

Bounty hunter's countermeasures in TOR was the best thing ever. \o/

[Kellach Woods]

So, yes, I respect people who enjoy tanking and can do it well. SE admits openly that tanking IS more of a challenge by the tacit addition of extra xp and seals for Tanks in duty finder. A more balanced system wouldn't need so much extra enticement. We all want more tanks because holding hate in FFXIV is a challenge, and I agree with others that a lot of DRKs are going to get ditched at 50 unless roles find more balancing in Heavenward.

 

So, what do we need?  Maybe a hate-reducing song for bards (Quelling strikes is NOT a panic button and can't be used that way), a quick aggro-dump for healers (long recharge is ok), and a bodyguard sort of skill, like other games have, that allow Tanks to pick a troublesome party-mate and absorb more hate from them.

 

1) They give the bonus to whoever isn't queuing as much - Tanks is quasi universal because a lot of them just don't queue since they have proper groups. If I hadn't found my niche in Warrior I wouldn't be tanking. It's not Square deciding it, it's the system they built basing itself on the playerbase deciding that tank isn't a fun role to play.

 

Yes, I have actually seen DPS bonus by the by.

 

2) You can manage your aggro as DPS/Healer, it's called not being a dumbass. Threat management is as much your responsibility as it is the Tank's to build it as much as possible. Same as when you pull off from the Tank, it's your responsibility to manage it properly so it is guided right into his arms. Ideally by running towards him, stopping DPS for a bit or limiting enough that he can do something. With the mechanics in this game and equivalent weaponry, threat should be manageable by all.

 

PLDs have Cover. WHM has Shroud of Saints (yes it works as an aggro dump but most will use it for MP regen). DRG has Elusive Jump (it dumps aggro at the cost of leaving melee range which isn't a problem for DRG because Spineshatter/Dragonfire). Quelling Strikes isn't as good because it can be cross-classed into SMN/BLM and cross-class skills tend to suck compared to equivalent class-related skills. There's a reason why you have talents that make them much better on the parent class.

 

Releasing DRK as a Tank class won't make the tank population soar up - but maybe more people will find their niche playing the class and you'll get a slight increase in tanks. That's their plan by tying it into the only class they're releasing that has been in a FF before, is one of the most iconic classes in FF, and by having it tank differently than the other two.

[Aaron]

At least they realized not every new class should be dps.

 

I used to get annoyed with people complaining DRK wasn't dps when they had JUST GOT NIN and had MCH coming along DRK.

 

Like seriously? Are you that needy?

[Kellach Woods]

Eh, DRK has always been a high-damage class historically. I can understand the disappointment. Especially since it'll have to eschew the traditional sacrifice HP to deal moar damage mechanic of games past.

[Warren Castille]

Threat management is as much your responsibility as it is the Tank's to build it as much as possible.

 

This this this this this. I don't want to bang on the "I blame WoW!" drum but in this instance, I do. Tanking in WoW (especially in recent years) was just "spam this threat ability" with no real worry or management or concerns. It's lazy implementation that teaches DPS to immediately blow everything on anything, and it's not YOUR fault that the tank isn't in his 8000% threat stance spamming his 12000% threat generator.

 

PLDs have Cover. WHM has Shroud of Saints (yes it works as an aggro dump but most will use it for MP regen). DRG has Elusive Jump (it dumps aggro at the cost of leaving melee range which isn't a problem for DRG because Spineshatter/Dragonfire). Quelling Strikes isn't as good because it can be cross-classed into SMN/BLM and cross-class skills tend to suck compared to equivalent class-related skills. There's a reason why you have talents that make them much better on the parent class.

 

Cover will only help if the person being covered is aware of that fact. It doesn't affect enmity at all, either: Someone who took hate because they outpaced the tank will continue to outpace the tank if they don't throttle back. Cover just keeps them from being immediately eaten. Shroud is a nice immediate dump if it's needed. Most 1-2-3 DRGs won't use Elusive because "lel it duz no dmg."

 

Quelling is good, but requires a lot of investment for a cross-class skill especially if you aren't going to be leveling BRD. It also requires some foresight to use if you're not just hitting it before starting big AoE or something.

[Kellach Woods]

That was in response to the other point actually - in that those abilities do exist (since he was talking about a bodyguard ability I included Cover in there) for certain classes.

 

Elusive Jump also allows you to back the fuck out of an AoE faster than strafing away AND drops aggro AND sets you up for returning to the fray with Dragonfire Dive.

[Warren Castille]

That was in response to the other point actually - in that those abilities do exist (since he was talking about a bodyguard ability I included Cover in there) for certain classes.

 

Elusive Jump also allows you to back the fuck out of an AoE faster than strafing away AND drops aggro AND sets you up for returning to the fray with Dragonfire Dive.

 

Roger roger. Small note about how stupidly designed Elusive is, though: You don't "travel" until the animation ends, so it can't actually be used to dodge AoE.

 

An aside regarding DRK's role as a damage dealer historically:

 

In single player FF games featuring the class, it's a damage dealer because everything has to be otherwise it sucks. Of course the main character class is going to have high health and damage and ability - We'd despise them as a main character otherwise. Aeris in FF7 does horrific horribad melee damage when you meet her - double digits, we're talking - and her only real "use" is that she's a mage... In a game where everyone can equip every spell to basically the same extent and effect. She'd never work as the "main" character because she'd be immediately outclassed by everyone you meet.

 

FFXI, the only other online FF in this vein, featured DRK as a DPS. If you ignore blink-tanking for a moment, DRK is actually AS MUCH OF if not MORE of a tank than PLD is! XI threat was completely fucked for a long long time - Provoke was a warrior-only ability and worked as a threat-spike in XI, not as a taunt like it does in XIV. This meant that every tank HAD to use warrior as their subclass, and all other enmity was generated through 1) damage and 2) healing. MP on a paladin? Not exactly very high. They could cast big heals maybe once or twice every couple of fights, but DRK could use heavier weapons to greater effect and actually hold threat that way.

 

Ninja blink-tanking completely "ruined" the established concepts (and by "ruined" we meant "helped a lot, because XI was fucked conventionally).

 

Grognard edit:

 

 

[Cynel1]

well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

[Warren Castille]

well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

 

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible.

[Cynel1]

well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

 

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible

 now that you mention it the Japanese Version of XIV Paladin are named Knight.

[Warren Castille]

well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

 

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible

 now that you mention it the Japanese Version of XIV Paladin are named Knight.

 

Yep. They completely scrubbed out the last sense of "holiness" from the class when they took away Holy Succor.

[Gegenji]

well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

 

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible.

 

Well, that's if you are running the Dark Knight as a Dark Knight as presented in the game. You could certainly run a Paladin that is "corrupted" and still uses the Paladin skillset and whatnot - there's nothing like the DnD Paladin-style vow-to-the-gods mechanic that strips you of your abilities if you step awry, after all. Conversely, you could have a Paladin who takes up whatever darky-dark-darkness path the Dark Knight's method provides for whatever nefarious purposes while still claiming to be a Paladin. Then you technically have a "Corrupted" Paladin despite mechanically being a Dark Knight.

 

It's all really in how you spin it, and how those you RP regularly with react to it.

[Warren Castille]

well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.

 

It doesn't matter how you see it, it only matters who SE presents the class in the context of the game. Paladins in XIV aren't holy, and they're already plenty corruptible.

 

Well, that's if you are running the Dark Knight as a Dark Knight as presented in the game. You could certainly run a Paladin that is "corrupted" and still uses the Paladin skillset and whatnot - there's nothing like the DnD Paladin-style vow-to-the-gods mechanic that strips you of your abilities if you step awry, after all. Conversely, you could have a Paladin who takes up whatever darky-dark-darkness path the Dark Knight's method provides for whatever nefarious purposes while still claiming to be a Paladin. Then you technically have a "Corrupted" Paladin despite mechanically being a Dark Knight.

 

It's all really in how you spin it, and how those you RP regularly with react to it.

 

Hm, I should backpedal clarify that I'm taking on the "anti-paladin" concept that always seem the link these two jobs. Traditionally, PLD and DRK wear the same types of gear, do the same types of damage and one channels white magic while the other channels dark magic.

 

That doesn't really work in XIV, though, because paladins aren't holy knights here. They're just knights. Being a fallen knight is an angle, sure, but there's no "falling" away from the light in this case. Sultansworn are guards with a unique sprite, and Free Paladins are trained in a specific method of combat. If you turn away from that, you're not really... evil? You just don't use that style/method/job anymore.

 

Hm, I guess what I mean is that ANYONE can "fall" and embrace Dark Knight. There's nothing inherently anti-paladin about it.

 

UNLESS Raubahn gets an awesome metal arm (I want him to just put a SWORD there) and becomes the DRK trainer, exclusively teaching people anti-paladin methods of fighting. Then I'm waaaay off.

 

 

[Gegenji]

Hm, I should backpedal clarify that I'm taking on the "anti-paladin" concept that always seem the link these two jobs. Traditionally, PLD and DRK wear the same types of gear, do the same types of damage and one channels white magic while the other channels dark magic.

 

Ah, yes. Lore-wise, the two are not polar opposites of each other (or a "dark" version... again, like the Antipaladin class in DnD which was basically a Paladin for the evil deities), but really... have they ever really been? Bear with me on this one, I may get diatribe-y.

 

Dark Knights, classically (in a Final Fantasy sense, of course), didn't channel "dark magic" at all from what I can tell. They used their own life energy to bolster their attacks, and this self-inflicted pain was mirrored in the fact that their armor is literally bolted to them. If there's any duality between the two classes, it's "inflicting pain on one's self in order to harm others" against "healing the pain of self and others." That, in my opinion, was basically what Cecil was dealing with in FFIV with his conversion - you can't fight suffering/pain with more suffering/pain, you need to rise above it to truly break the cycle and he just couldn't do that with the skill set he had.

 

And that's basically what he did. He helped mend rather than break. And it was that - and the strength of the friends he made along the way - that allowed him to use the Crystal to reveal the big bad's true form and then pound him into submission. Which, I suppose goes against the whole healing the pain thing in that guy's case, but it's Final Fantasy and you always have to beat up the boss at the end. ANYWAY.

 

If you want "swordsmen who use Black Magic," you actually would need to look at Red Mage and, for those who remember FFV, the Mystic Knight. Red Mage, obviously, is your jack-of-all-trades that can do a little of everything but none of it exceptionally well - heals a little, casts some attack magic, smacks things with a sword and wears light armor. The Mystic Knight - also known as the Spellblade - channeled the Black Magics into their weapon to give it elemental properties and couldn't actually cast the spells directly at enemies (unless you set !Black as one of the character's skills!). Oddly enough, though, FFXI's Red Mage more or less inherited this trick as well with the En- spells.

 

From how I'm seeing things, this is sort of continuing here. The Paladin is still, at its base, what its always been - a guardian class with some healing ability, the whole "holy" aspect just comes from the fact that they protect and heal. There's nothing inherently divine about them - doubly so since healing is done using the elements (or one's personal aether) in Eorzea. Dark Knight, from what we've heard so far, is again using Darkness to perform its abilities... but it's being tweaked some from the whole "harming self to bolster power" aspect. Which, personally, I thought would've made for an interesting tanking mechanic (burn HP for abilities - your HP is suddenly a resource you have to manage even more than before!), but I can understand why they didn't go with it.

 

I'm reserving my overall opinion on how it turns out until after we actually see DRK in action.

[Warren Castille]

Enh, you got me. I tended to not use DRK so I glanced over their skillset and filled in what I know from XI. Point: Lalafell!

 

Still, their philosophy as an opposite to paladin has sort of always been there: DRK hurts itself to damage others. Paladin hurts himself to protect others (i.e., Cover). It'll be interesting to see how DRK plays out lore-wise. I need to know where the darkness powers come into play.

[Seriphyn]

I feel like DRK lorewise is going to be inherently more powerful than other jobs (not talking mechanically). Paladins are just really good sword-and-boarders of a particular style, and Warriors have this inner power. 

 

But Dark Knights not only have this huge greatsword, but have an external power and can throw around dark magic at everything etc.

[Dogberry]

I think it's a little too early to make that kind of judgement given the actual amount of information we have (like... one sentence?) on what they'll be like.

[Warren Castille]

For all we know we're headed to another super special chosen one storyline like WHM or DRG and that's the explanation for why they have mastery over two spheres.