Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately?

[Gegenji]

I've... hit the post reply button, stared at the blank screen, and backed out from posting in this thread several times. What to say? How to say it? Is it something that I feel needs to be said?

 

Ultimately, though, I guess I can only say this: I am certainly getting tired of seeing a possibly interesting thread bogged down by sniping and personal agendas. I used to go through lots of threads in my downtime at work, click on them and read through. If they caught my interest, I might say something, otherwise it was just an interesting read.

 

These days, I find myself making heavy use of the "Mark All as Read" button. Threads that I would've followed before, I get about a page in before someone says something passive aggressive or takes an offended stance and it all descends into squabbling. A couple times I've fallen victim to it myself, hence why I've pulled back - I can't find myself being able to add anything that wouldn't be possibly just adding to the flame-pile.

 

I was actually really worried this thread would (ironically?) fall into the same pile. A couple posts threatened to do so. But this is honestly an issue that resonates with me, so I settled down and read through it.

 

And, really, there's not much more I can add that hasn't already been said. Just emphasize that I would really enjoy it if people had personal issues with another poster, to take them to PMs. And cut down on the personal lament posts that interrupt or even derail discussion into said personal agendas. I don't mind the occasional derail (especially if it's for comedic value or to just to help lighten the mood), but a lot of said derails seem to involve turning immediately onto Sensitive Topic Boulevard or "this topic doesn't matter because of my personal problem."

 

How much is honest anger at another person? How much is honest frustration at RP/the RP community as a whole? How much of it is just trolling? I don't know. But, if there are grievances - can't they either be aired privately or, if it's a widespread matter, try to solve it civilly in its own thread instead of being injected wherever it can gain a foothold?

 

A good example is in this very thread - the "I can't find RP/Popular Cliques" sub-argument that has no place here. I'm not saying it's not an important topic that shouldn't be discussed or addressed - but it shouldn't be in here. I get that people are trying in the Making Connection threads and whatnot to try to get into RP and having difficulty - but that is not the point of this thread. Can't such things be brought up and discussed (again, civilly) in its own thread instead of tacked onto a completely different discussion?

 

... Still, I'm rambling, so I'll just stop here before I lose any more track of where I was going with this. :blush:

[Maril]

I cannot begin to stress just how much the passive-aggressive sighing, that "Everyone's ignoring me" shtick, gets under my skin. As if you're the Yellow Emperor whose needs need to be met for civilization to continue. Honestly, if there's any toxicity in this group, this... culture, whatever it is you wish to call our community it's the negativity that's radiating from those who feel wronged when they don't get what they want right now and place the blame on the community itself for not fulfilling their needs.

 

The problem is when people who are new or trying to drum up connections in the connections forum get passed over. Or when new people say hello, and people ignore their threads. It's not even a matter of those people saying that they're being ignored. It's a general sense of seeing that they're being ignored.

 

Trust me, I'm an advocate for people getting out there and finding RP, starting it up with people randomly. It's how I met some of the best friends I have in this game. It's how I met my current RP partner. 

 

But pretending like it's not happening is just as bad as people who don't advocate for themselves. It does happen. You may not have experienced it, but it doesn't lessen the fact that it does happen to other people.

 

It reminds me of a camp that I went to for the school I teach at. It was a diversity camp thingy, and one of the things that they taught us was that "We are the owner of our own story." We cannot invalidate someone else's experience simply because it's an experience that we have never had. Count yourself lucky that you don't feel that way, and make a point of ensuring that others don't have that experience. That's how we're going to fix it. Not by telling people that it's their own fault for feeling ignored.

 

Presently speaking though, all of the threads in the welcome desk has replies and some of them even have upwards of ten. I don't know if you were specifically meaning for the welcome threads, but getting a few replies to something like that is pretty good in my eyes. They're hard to reply to in the sense that usually you can say little more than some variation of welcome and maybe toss in a compliment to their character design. I try to do it because I like doing stuff like that but I can also understand why someone wouldn't bother so much with a one-five word reply. 

 

I also feel like there shouldn't be so much blaming involved when it comes to finding and not finding roleplay. It's not to anyones fault because it's not just one persons responsibility, it's everyones responsibility. You, me, even the lurkers. So if one is to blame we're all to blame in the same bout and that doesn't really lead to anywhere constructive. 

I have posted in a lot of making connections threads, and so far I have been contacted by a fraction of the OP's, I usually try to encourage people reaching out to me in game because I will forget to do it, I have the memory of a sieve. I have a slight expectance for people looking for connections also following through with a tell or a PM or similar. Though I think this talk has happened before. 

 

If someone is struggling to find roleplay, my advice is always to try and get in the fray and do some walk ups. It's hard to start storylines with strangers, so try to have a stab at the crowd and see if you can turn some of the strangers into regular contacts. That might mean showing up at large events that doesn't always suit your character (eg. I try to spectate the grindstone now and then, none of my characters fight however, and there's not always someone to cheer on. But you might just meet another spectator to idly chat with about the fighting that's going on) 

Sometimes bringing your characters into envirionments where they wouldn't exactly thrive can help develop them as well, maybe a positive experience means they wont be so opposed to it in the future. Mind you I'm not saying break your character, cause that's no fun. 

 

And then.. Persistence. I know it's hard, but it does pay off in the end. Despite being a GM, I do go through times of RP starvation, and generally wanting to RP with someone outside of my company as well. I end up facing the same challenges.

 

If there's anyone out there compatible with my activity as an EU'er, feel free to reach out and poke me. Nailah is a very versatile character, save for coerthas and northern thanalan there's not a place where she wont go, and she will absolutely start the conversation too. She isn't overly great with paralysingly shy characters, though. 

 

This ended up being longer than I expected. I sorry. Please accept a cookie.

[Melodia]

As someone who has been guilty of being passive aggressive in this site, and on threads, having PM fights, and even "quitting" multiple times. I went through a huge overhaul of myself and how I interact by realizing that it's okay to have differing opinions. It's okay to not rp with everyone. It's okay not have the best gear or coil achievements or what have you. I have learned that I am but one person in this community and if everyone likes me or wants to rp with me, that's cool. And if no one does, that is also cool. Because we each have a level of responsibility in the community and that is simply to engage in a constructive manner or at least a peaceable manner.

 

I don't know if any of that makes sense lol. But I do love the community and even those I've butted heads with are like family in a way. I may not have ever rp'd with 99.9% of people here but I still enjoy what they have to say here and in game. I still enjoy hearing their points and even reading debates.

 

I just mean to say, I own my own share of blame for toxicity, which I have been working hard recently to put to bed once and for all. And I accept my role in the community as but one member, one voice....being peaceable and constructive. All other stuff (rp, events, this or that) elements are good...but that base foundation is now how I operate here and in game and hope that others see how that can be a positive way to move forward and leave the angriness and sadness at the login screen because I will be the first to attest...none of those things help the community nor yourself. *Hugs*

[ProvaDiServo]

I guess I've been on bad forums to long or something, Snide remarks are common practice where I'm familiar with, I think other than the thread where everyone Zerg'd on Reddard I haven't really been alerted to anything toxic, I just saw it as debates. Ad hominem is bound to happen, I'm not advocating any type of behavior unbecoming of the sites expectations and I may not even be one hundred percent sold on that Kumbaya pact either. Personalities clash, I just ask we all keep it professional and solve your beefs in PMs.

 

If®it aint personal don't take it personally.

 

Cliques happen and senority breeds that. It happens. I just post what comes to mind and leave it on the board, if it goes unchallenged or unrecognized I don't take offense it just like w/e and keep moving. (Besides the fact I'm a horrible poster ) If you are seeking roleplay or to establish yourself in the community, learn how to network, it's gonna be a bit of work definitely, but there will be payoff. It's just like fishing.

 

 

 

Just thoughts on a few things. take it how you want

[Alothia]

Hey, guys. I'm going to split off your posts because the images don't contribute to the discussion, and it's just derailing the thread.

 

/AdminHat

[Kaniko Niko]

The problem is when people who are new or trying to drum up connections in the connections forum get passed over. Or when new people say hello, and people ignore their threads. It's not even a matter of those people saying that they're being ignored. It's a general sense of seeing that they're being ignored.

 

Trust me, I'm an advocate for people getting out there and finding RP, starting it up with people randomly. It's how I met some of the best friends I have in this game. It's how I met my current RP partner. 

 

But pretending like it's not happening is just as bad as people who don't advocate for themselves. It does happen. You may not have experienced it, but it doesn't lessen the fact that it does happen to other people.

 

It reminds me of a camp that I went to for the school I teach at. It was a diversity camp thingy, and one of the things that they taught us was that "We are the owner of our own story." We cannot invalidate someone else's experience simply because it's an experience that we have never had. Count yourself lucky that you don't feel that way, and make a point of ensuring that others don't have that experience. That's how we're going to fix it. Not by telling people that it's their own fault for feeling ignored.

 

I understand wholeheartedly what you're saying and am even on the same page. I'm very much an advocate as you are and regularly try and promote other groups' RP activities within my own small circle of friends. In fact, I resonate quite a lot with Erik here on the RPC in that I dream of a much, much more "open access/open possibilities" roleplay culture. However, it's just as folly to assume that the people who do complain of being ignored, especially in a public channel such as LS or FC isn't being passive-aggressive and contributes to a negative environment. I see:

 

"Siiiigh. Nobody wants to RP with me! I must be invisible" instead of "Hey guys. Things are a little quiet. Anyone up for RP?"

 

"I can't get anything done because nobody wants to run content with me" instead of, "If anyone's up for a Soldiery bonus, I could use some help with Thornmarch" or "Anyone else have content they need done, too? We could schedule one big group run."

 

Between the former and the latter? I'm fully comfortable in saying that yes, it is the former's own fault for feeling ignored with that attitude.

[Alothia]

I see:

 

"Siiiigh. Nobody wants to RP with me! I must be invisible" instead of "Hey guys. Things are a little quiet. Anyone up for RP?"

 

"I can't get anything done because nobody wants to run content with me" instead of, "If anyone's up for a Soldiery bonus, I could use some help with Thornmarch" or "Anyone else have content they need done, too? We could schedule one big group run."

 

Between the former and the latter? I'm fully comfortable in saying that yes, it is the former's own fault for feeling ignored with that attitude.

 

I think we're talking about two different things. I was talking about people here on the RPC feeling ignored in their threads. 

 

I have to say that I've tried to drum up RP for my group here, and made posts, and most of them have gone pretty well ignored. I don't cry about it, but I can see how other people who are trying to do the same thing could see it as being ignored.

 

Or if you look at the introduction threads. Back when the game first opened, we'd have threads with 20+ people welcoming them and engaging in the threads. Now, when people post an introduction thread, they're lucky to get 10 posts...and that's very rare.

 

In game, I agree that people need to advocate. But here, people need to make a conscious effort to include others outside of their circle.

[Kaniko Niko]

Yes, yes. I don't believe I was clear enough and apologize deeply if I've been misconstrued. I'm not saying that there aren't people who try and try and try and don't find what they're looking for. That's practically life itself in a nutshell. Everyone, and I do mean everyone, should at least get the cursory help they need to get started and we as a community have some semblance of a duty to provide it.

 

I'm merely pointing out the toxicity that can come from the bellyaching that can, and all too often does come from it. Like it or not, nobody cares for a whiner. Especially when when assistance is there, but it might take a little time. And sadly, to those of you who do feel left out, I can only offer bread and salt—tough it out humbly. And continue toughing it out humbly. All it takes is for one person to be a Negative Nancy to start the accusations of "toxic environment" this or "ignores newcomers" that which really does end up self-creating the said toxic environment.

[Askier]

We were all new people once here and it can be kinda intimidating.  When I first started I only really had one person who rp'ed with me for a couple months.  I understood that a lot of -older- rpers had time commitments but I wanted to meet more people.

 

So I hosted a couple very large events to try and get myself involved in rp and it worked.  I recommend any new player wanting rp to host an event. It doesn't need to be as insanely complex as some of mine were.  Even a simple one, like a bandit raid, or sneaking into a Garlean base, or even just moving trade goods to another city can be a ton of fun.

 

Have a plot and run with it.  Even if you only get three people to sign up. That's three connections you just made.  There is a section just for setting up events here on the rpc.  Use it to generate interest and arrange times to meet. I know I did.

 

People only have so much free time and when they get on, they often want to get straight to the rp, so often they go to in-game friends.  But if you set up an event ahead of time, people know to be there and will clear their schedule to be there to rp. Jancis and Warren do this all the time with their events and people show up in droves and rp just happens cause people knew where to be.

 

Being new sucks, and not being approached by -older- crowd rpers can seem disheartening but if no one comes to you offering rp, why not be the one offering the rp? If you build it, they will come.

[Kage]

Or if you look at the introduction threads. Back when the game first opened, we'd have threads with 20+ people welcoming them and engaging in the threads. Now, when people post an introduction thread, they're lucky to get 10 posts...and that's very rare.

Perhaps this should be taken to another thread as suggested because it doesn't quite jive with the notion of "For certain users over X amount of months who have been here, the atmosphere seems to have changed here" but I wanted to address this.

 

There was a time that I personally wanted to try and reach out to every. single. person who posted in the Welcome threads that I thought would be great to RP with either by character design or who I felt seemed to be easier for me to relate with/get along with etc., as I know there are certain personalities that I can't be with for too long. It's just bad for me. Or I wanted to post because I genuinely wanted to try and help them if they needed help with a) the game or b) anything else they had questions about.

 

I will admit to my own faults in that a lot of times, I've always been unable in also putting 3 steps forward which has been mentioned in one of those recent "reach out to others but if you won't have the fortitude,etc. to keep doing it, don't" posts I've seen before so I stopped.

 

What happened, in my case, is that I posted in a lot of these threads. I told them their character sounded interesting, because they were! For both me and the character I play. Most of them, they didn't really ever say anything again. Some friended me, and then didn't say anything. I could have and should have done more in including them. Set more time in my schedule to do things on my own such as planning to meet them or make my own event with them. But with all relationships, sometimes it might feel as if you aren't receiving anything for the efforts you gave out which for me has always been the first step of "contact me in-game or by PM." In my case, when I never even got that interest it sorta just became a "oh, well, guess they weren't interested in my character or getting to know me so I'll let it go." It became too easy I admit to just give up. I imagine it does go the same way for everyone, people searching for RP or not.

[Zhavi]

 

Or if you look at the introduction threads. Back when the game first opened, we'd have threads with 20+ people welcoming them and engaging in the threads. Now, when people post an introduction thread, they're lucky to get 10 posts...and that's very rare.

 

 

I felt it important to note that summer to early fall of 2014 people were lucky to get one or two people welcoming them. . .it's actually gone way up from where it was.

 

edit :

 

What happened, in my case, is that I posted in a lot of these threads. I told them their character sounded interesting, because they were! For both me and the character I play. Most of them, they didn't really ever say anything again. Some friended me, and then didn't say anything. I could have and should have done more in including them. Set more time in my schedule to do things on my own such as planning to meet them or make my own event with them. But with all relationships, sometimes it might feel as if you aren't receiving anything for the efforts you gave out which for me has always been the first step of "contact me in-game or by PM." In my case, when I never even got that interest it sorta just became a "oh, well, guess they weren't interested in my character or getting to know me so I'll let it go." It became too easy I admit to just give up. I imagine it does go the same way for everyone, people searching for RP or not.

 

It is one thing if people are literally scared of reaching out to other people, but no. There is a burden on both parties.

 

You cannot be expected to drag someone out to rp, nor can you be expected to continue to spend energy on someone who is not replying, not putting forth the effort, or continually telling you 'not right now, sorry'.

[DoomsdayClock]

A positive environment will foster positive feedback and a better community. This works in most cases, be it a forum, a neighborhood, a store..whatever. If you fill something with good energy, keep it clean and tidy and welcoming, good people and interactions will thrive there.

If you allow it to become negative, it you allow bad elements, topics, aggression, attitude, to fill it up..then those sorts of people will become your norm, and eventually the more upbeat and happy folks will no longer feel welcome ( in this case a lot of the new folks seem to stress that feeling ).

As a community this can be a very rough waters environment. There is a a lot of talk about the importance of communication, while in practice it seems less used. There is a larger focus on red flags, bad feelings, and warning signs, than working through things, gaining understanding, and building a better community from it. I've learned this in likely the hardest way possible, and despite that I still feel the need to try, because like most people here I do have a genuine care for this grouping and setting.

So for what my two cents are worth...I do think there should be more of a focus on how to help others do right, rather than what they are doing wrong..be it lore, their direction to gain Rp, or whatever else.

Its hard. A lot of us are on here so much because we don't likely do well in regular interaction and social situations, so when we remove the human elements it can get worse in different ways. Approaching a stranger can be downright terrifying...and I've had MANY visits to the Grindstone in past weeks were I was completely ignored even when I directly said things to some people ( before the fights, not during..so it wasn't a matter of distraction. ) But you just kind of have to roll with it and keep trying. I can say that I feel the connections you DO make through your own perseverance and merit are likely far better than any you'd get through griping or briefing.

I think the best advice anyone can give on this matter, or help in these situations is Eleni I believe? Her SMILE comments really do embody what the community likely should focus on.

Or if you really find yourself unable to post something constructive on a thread that seems like it's a powder keg, don't post?

Also Black Hat, was fun Rping with you at the GS, Healers really just loom around there lol.

[Zhavi]

The many of you who oftentimes complain of exclusivity and being ignored need to start spending your stat points in Patience. There aren't many personality flaws that dig at me. Betraying your own ideals. Constantly selling yourself short. The big one? Entitlement. I cannot begin to stress just how much the passive-aggressive sighing, that "Everyone's ignoring me" shtick, gets under my skin. As if you're the Yellow Emperor whose needs need to be met for civilization to continue. Honestly, if there's any toxicity in this group, this... culture, whatever it is you wish to call our community it's the negativity that's radiating from those who feel wronged when they don't get what they want right now and place the blame on the community itself for not fulfilling their needs.

 

And to me, those people stick out like sore thumbs because I find this community positively wonderful.

 

To be fair there's plenty of people are putting time and effort into finding role-play and they're still struggling to find it through no fault of their own. You can't expect people to be patient forever.

 

I think it's unfair for people to brush off the concerns raised so readily. It's great that you have found a steady supply of role-play but what you experience isn't the same as what everybody else experiences.

 

I also don't think it's a matter of 'entitlement' (can we even use that term to describe people who want role-play on an unofficial role-playing realm?) as much as it's a matter of frustration. Not everybody is keen on attending bustling events either - especially if they're more in favour of something much more personal and character driven.

 

Part of the issue, as I wrote in my post, is that in order to help someone you need specific problems in order to give good, helpful advice. And so, most of the time, generic advice is given ad nauseam and nothing really changes because it probably doesn't apply to the specific problems specific people are having.

 

People need to come forward with a can do attitude. If they have shyness or social anxiety issues, as I've said, then maybe speak to a trusted friend and have them bring forth the issues.

 

It gets really frustrating for people to dole out advice after advice after advice to keep seeing 'none of you care, and you're all the problem for not being open enough," you know? Because there are a lot of people here who do want to help and like to help. But if all anyone ever sees is 'nothing is working, no one is able to rp, there are too many cliques' -- then how can anyone help?

 

Saying "hey, the faucet is leaking and no one wants to help" isn't going to get the faucet fixed. Where is the faucet? What kind of faucet is it? Have you tried asking for a friend's help and is it still leaking? What methods have your tried on it? Have you called someone? Has someone tried to help but you were out of the house or sleeping?

 

You know? There is no one fix for everyone. So in the meantime everyone trots out the only advice they can give in a generic situation and hope that it helps.

[Aris]

Hello. I'm usually a lurker on here due to my own lack of confidence, and more recently due to the reasons that started this thread. But as this is something everyone is experiencing I thought it'd be good to share my interpretations of it as well, and hopefully others will if they haven't already, as it would be good to everyone's opinion, even those who aren't directly involved.

 

 It's been bought up how the community here isn't as welcoming as it was, 'popularity', cliques, and other issues along those lines. Since it's been mentioned so often by different people on multiple occassions it can be concluded that these issues exist. However, in my opinion they are separate and unrelated to recent aggression that has been here lately, so I won't go futher on it.

 

 I've gotten the impression since there has been some negativity building over the past months, people are on their guard even more than they usually would be and are seeing aggression where there isn't any. Hopefully this thread has helped break that cycle and has been a gentle reminder to everyone that users are just discussing things and more often than not, not trying to cause a fight. (Is my grammar right there? Should there be two nots? :blush: )

 

 Actually I feel stupid because I'm finding it really difficult to sum up what I wanted to say, because often I can't tell if people are being rude or not on here, which is ultimately the problem. So instead I'm going to second remembering to read your reply before posting, maybe if in doubt even adding "I'm not starting an argument and am genuinely interested in what you have to say!" 

 Be the better person. If you see someone being snarky, ignore it or navigate around it. It doesn't make you look any better than them if you respond in kind.

 If you feel someone is getting personal, then send a private message to them rather than continuing publically. I can think of many threads that could have been salvaged if this happened.

 Lastly, please, please, agree to disagree when you both believe you are right. In pretty much every case I have seen on here, no-one is wrong. But everyone has different opinions, and it's important to remember that.

 I'm just repeating everyone else. :blush:

 

 Thank you to our lovely Moderators for discussing this, dealing with recent dramas, and generally being awesome.

[Aya]

 

To be fair there's plenty of people are putting time and effort into finding role-play and they're still struggling to find it through no fault of their own. You can't expect people to be patient forever.

 

I think it's unfair for people to brush off the concerns raised so readily. It's great that you have found a steady supply of role-play but what you experience isn't the same as what everybody else experiences.

 

I also don't think it's a matter of 'entitlement' (can we even use that term to describe people who want role-play on an unofficial role-playing realm?) as much as it's a matter of frustration. Not everybody is keen on attending bustling events either - especially if they're more in favour of something much more personal and character driven.

Why is this even being discussed here?  Its not what the thread is about.  I think people taking any opportunity they can to turn a particular thread toward their own passionate hobbyhorse is part of the issue here.

[Alothia]

Why is this even being discussed here?  Its not what the thread is about.  I think people taking any opportunity they can to turn a particular thread toward their own passionate hobbyhorse is part of the issue here.

 

It was brought up in a couple of posts, about how people here on the RPC feel ignored.

 

Graeham was responding to someone else's post discussing how people just need to not whine about it and take matters into their own hands. 

 

It was a perfectly valid post in response to the other one. In fact, I made one as well.

 

It does apply to the topic at hand because if people are using the RPC for it's intended purpose, which is to find and facilitate RP, then people shouldn't be feeling as if they are ignored.

 

Just wanted to clarify why that post contributed.

[Rin Fashonti]

People have always preferred their comfort zone; it's human nature. People tend to unintentionally fear or shun change, with the exceptional few who love change.

 

Honestly both issues have plagued almost all the RP communities spread across MMOS. From WoW to Rift, from GW2 to SWTOR. People in general form their inner circles and Lore is rarely ever explained enough to be agreed upon. This is arguably for artistic freedom and interpretation or just laziness from the developers. It is nice to have -some- idea of how things are suppose to work without completely molding you into one path. Being creative is great and making your own story is the point of RP, but when several people write conflicting backgrounds it can cause issues and arguments. That is my opinion to why people get so upset. All in all, we have to remember why we are all here and what the other person's goal is as much as yours. I'm basically just babbling at this point, but from a newcomers PoV it's expected with a new community and is just like moving into a new neighborhood. Some people will bring pies, some will say hello, some will completely ignore you, but in time things settle down and you'll find a few connections. All people need sometimes is a little push..Or pull if you prefer

 

But it's not just here, for anyone who ever played wow you'd find arguments from Deathknight pregnancy to how elves age. Though people should agree to disagree, sometimes accepting that some people won't is..Somewhat..Agreeing to disagree?

[Branson Thorne]

All I have to say is this:

If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch

 

And as far as my comfort zone, I only have one comfort zone....the "DANGER ZONE!"

[Leanne]

What I will say may sound mean, but if there's a best time to be up front and honest, it would be right now.

 

Not blaming anyone, people have the right of their opinions, they will always do. But, I came to consider a part of the RP community I live in as quite vitriolic for what I've witnessed in the RPC. Not only in serious topics, but in seemingly simple ones! Things that should been healthy, interesting conversations and discussions about lore or what else degrading into a crazy war of opinions where words were/are used as weapons and there's no middle term, no compromise, understanding or acknowledgement of your thoughts, just right and wrong. As I told a few friends, I've been writing a story, but I'm partly being fearful of doing such. Why so? Not because the story is bad (though that is something I worry about all the time), but because of the liberties I'm taking with the Eorzean mythology, I feel like it will stir people into biting me.

 

RL is harsh for everyone as far as I'm aware. But people should always be vigilant of themselves before throwing potentially hurting words out there. One of the things I always insist on saying, your freedom ends where the others' begin. People shouldn't try to prove others wrong. It is your right to disagree as it is your right to convince people of your/try to change their opinion, but it is not right to attack one's opinion. I feel also that everyone's an adult and should be aware/work with each other in a manner that the topics that are being talked about doesn't devolve into flame wars. Action of the moderators should be considered a last resort, a thing that must be avoided.

 

Anyhow, that's my words as a forum lurker. If I sound mean by any manner, sorry, if you disagree with me and my choice on words, sorry too. It is just my two cents.

[Ette]

Honestly I feel like the desire to be right overwrites the desire to have a conversation in many cases. This is also the case with many a place/people IRL but the problem here juxtaposed with two things:

 

• We’re all nerds playing Catgirls Online but seem to have forgotten we’re all nerds playing Catgirls Online.
  
• Even though many of us are just a bunch of text on a screen that text has been written by real people.
  

I actually don’t care about sniping and snark here and there. It’s whatever. Sometimes it’s even well placed and funny.

 

What I do think needs to stop is like. . . Alright, hypothetical example. I have a chubby Seeker. I make a thread asking if anyone else’s characters have a bodytype that deviates from the model. At some point someone posts that they think my fatcat is lore breaking. I reply with an explanation for why she is the way she is but ultimately agree to disagree. They post that no they will not agree to disagree and here is why. Thread devolves into six pages of the same point being echoed over and over and over with a rapidly degrading tone.

 

There are just times when you need to leave the keyboard and ask yourself if telling a person they’re wrong fifty eight different ways about a fictional universe is worth it. I don’t personally feel like I’ve been the victim of this but I have watched and I do feel for some of these people. I can only imagine how much it sucks to be excited over a shiny new toy and then told that not only is your toy bad but YOU are bad for liking it.

[Verad]

Here's why I'm hostile:

 

It feels good. It's cathartic. If there's somebody I disagree with, then replying in a hostile tone is pleasurable. Unfortunately, catharsis is addictive, so I keep doing it.

 

As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.

 

To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.

 

Carrying on, I find it to be something to post when I don't feel like there's anything very useful or interesting going on in the boards in general, and in the pre-expansion lull, that's been quite a lot. I prefer substantive discussion to fun threads or hype speculation. I don't hate fun threads, and I will post in some of them myself, but in some of the forums I prefer, like Character Development, they dominate the discourse. I don't consider them circlejerks as other posters have insinuated, but I don't want to see them be the primary mode of discourse.

 

It's a useful way to shift conversations which are going down the same roads they always go. I recognize that there are new roleplayers every day, but there are not so many new roleplayers, not just to FF14, but to RP in general, that we need to have regular threads that end with the same non-conclusion of "It comes down to trust and communication" whenever there's any thread dealing with the possibility of character or player conflict. The conversations always stop there, at this uncertain point which is technically true but functionally useless as roleplaying advice, and it's no wonder they devolve into arguments. I admit my complicity in this, but at least hostility is interesting to read.

 

I also don't like forced positivity. I would rather be honestly critical in my own voice than be falsely positive. This can lead to people ignoring me, as I believe one person mentioned in this thread, and I completely understand that. I don't take it as a slight, and I would rather be ignored for my voice than chastised into changing it.

 

So that's some of the reasons.

[Zhavi]

 

 

I also don't like forced positivity. I would rather be honestly critical in my own voice than be falsely positive. This can lead to people ignoring me, as I believe one person mentioned in this thread, and I completely understand that. I don't take it as a slight, and I would rather be ignored for my voice than chastised into changing it.

 

So that's some of the reasons.

 

You're definitely intelligent enough to know there's varying levels of criticism and being critical, where I think the goal here would be to focus more on the satisfaction gained from criticism that fosters and empowers a topic rather than tears down those participating.

 

That said, you're insightful and honest: two traits that I find highly valuable.

 

The board is composed of individuals who make individual choices. No one that I've been aware of is an entrenched troll whose sole desire is to sow conflict, so as a result thread moderation can stem the symptoms, but not the cause.

 

Fixing the cause means people making choices on each post, and via each thread they read. And, something I hadn't considered: each post they +1.

 

Maybe it would be cool to have a 'concrit the writing of the person above you' thread, with the intention being for people to link a specific piece of their writing with responses genuinely offering thoughts and advice -- and more than just some throwaway one liner. A common theme throughout this thread has been that people would like more feedback about their writing.

 

edit - concrit thread: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=11236

 

So if you feel like your writing isn't being seen, there's an option.

[FreelanceWizard]

As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.

 

To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.

 

This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?

[Aya]

This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?

I really like the ability to give people rep boosts, its one of my favorite RPC activities to know that I can slightly brighten someone's day for having brightened mine.

 

I think getting rid of this in an effort to make the forum less hostile would really miss the mark...

[Warren Castille]

I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?

 

It's a good system that is easily misused. I view it as a polite way to tap someone on the shoulder and nod at them that I appreciated their post - Not enough to warrant a full PM to discuss things, but a "me too!" sort of thing. Hiding the number or making it only visible on their profile would help remove the intimidating factor that someone with a high number can have (Yes, I'm painfully aware of that) while still allowing people to get their dopamine rush from contributing. Outright removal is certainly an option, but there's too many folks with "legit" reputations that would be losing out because we like when people make dick jokes.