Are too many people "Fearless"?

[Caspar]

It's just something you have to deal with.

Even in real life, it is possible to feel uneasy around something that otherwise shouldn't be that threatening. A rabid animal, for instance, is smaller than you often enough and yet still can make a person feel nervous. I've tried to express that with my character, because there is a sense of wrongness about her, but you sorta come to accept that getting across the cute is easy, but scary not so. I rely on emote description to transmit what they can react to. If they choose not to, that's their business. I'm not going to guilt them for not being scared. It's a two-way street. You can't really make them react in a certain way; they're not your NPCs.

 

There are a lot things that my character isn't afraid of either. I think it's reasonable to have a person be hardened to violence and monsters in such a world, and not be intimidated. There are things that scare her in a rather minor, non-serious sense, and some that could be classified as severe phobias. I feel it's good to have a few weaknesses.

[industrythirteen]

This is an issue I've run into with roleplay from the very beginning in my experiences RPing in MMOs. This is my number one pet peeve in RP. It's a lot of posturing, which gets really old, really fast. I don't find it cute. I'm not entertained by a bunch of chest beating, and even less so by people talking about how badass they are in-character. Talk is cheap, don't tell me; Show me that you or your character don't have a chip on their shoulders or something to prove to yourself or others. 

 

I talk to them OOC and ask what they want out of the RP, and if they just want to throw their weight around, I disengage and ignore because chances are they aren't interested in cooperating or entertaining anyone but themselves. If they want to entertain folks with a fight, then we discuss how it's going to go, and what will work out for both parties. 

 

If someone wants to cause a scene in-character, I think it behooves them to contact people out-of-character first to set things up so that no one is put on the defensive.

 

edit: some additional thoughts I just had. There is nothing anyone of us can do to enforce our authority, whether we have it, or we perceive that we have it, in any situation. There is nothing that will make anyone go along with what we have to say in RP, ever, because it's not enforceable due to the limitations of the mechanics of any given game that we might play. There's no dueling in FFXIV, there isn't any open world PVP where people might have to defend themselves if they mouth off to the wrong person. This often makes me feel like my hands are tied, and why I am so quick to disengage from a situation because if someone doesn't want to cooperate out-of-character to make for a better in-character interaction, there isn't anything to be done about it, and I'd rather not waste my energy.

[Coatleque]

Lack of fear comes from lack of age, lack of experience, lack of respect, and lack of maturity. It has nothing to do with role-play the majority of the time. It has everything to do with being anonymous online and wanting to look tough or cool because you can't do so in real life. It is a selfish and narcissistic attitude that says "look at me, I'm more badass than any of you" regardless of setting or lore.

 

It has been argued that in a fantasy setting such as this where people and monsters are all magical with what we may consider super powers, that the very idea of fear would be diminished. I would argue for the exact opposite because you can't tell if that Lalafell staring down that Rogadyn has a better grasp of Aetheric concepts. Where as in real life you can see someone's bulging muscles and realize you're in a world of hurt.

[Flashhelix]

It has nothing to do with role-play the majority of the time.

 

Actually, it's roleplay, so it has everything to do with roleplay.

[Caspar]

Lack of fear comes from lack of age, lack of experience, lack of respect, and lack of maturity.  It has nothing to do with role-play the majority of the time.  It has everything to do with being anonymous online and wanting to look tough or cool because you can't do so in real life.  It is a selfish and narcissistic attitude that says "look at me, I'm more badass than any of you" regardless of setting or lore.

 

It has been argued that in a fantasy setting such as this where people and monsters are all magical with what we may consider super powers, that the very idea of fear would be diminished.  I would argue for the exact opposite because you can't tell if that Lalafell staring down that Rogadyn has a better grasp of Aetheric concepts.  Where as in real life you can see someone's bulging muscles and realize you're in a world of hurt.

That's a good point. I hadn't looked at it from that angle, but I figure perhaps that differs depending on a person's experience. Perhaps it could be seen as the mark of an unseasoned warrior to assume a smaller enemy or a fairly harmless looking monster is not dangerous. But it does seem likely someone with experience would fear different things, like not being able to properly judge an enemy's intent or skill level from appearances alone. That could easily make a fighter almost paranoid.

 

And also, it could be that the use of magic in such a setting means that those who can't use it are immediately suspicious and fearful of such harmless-looking enemies. For those who cannot fight, too, the use of magic might make them paranoid of, in a non-combat sense, others using aether to pull a fast one on them in various ways like manipulation of air currents to steal something from them or glamors to deceive them and sell them junk. I suppose it depends on the personality of the character in question as to how they respond to all the possible generators of fear in the setting.

[Dravus]

It's because quite a lot of role-players end up treating role-play as an arms race in regards to who can have the most 'badass' character. In the majority of cases this usually backfires but even many 'celebrated' role-players spend a troubling amount of time discussing how cool and powerful their creations supposedly are.

 

Then there's those who claim that anything smaller than a roegadyn is 'weak' and couldn't possibly beat their character despite the countless examples present in-game of that sort of thing happening very frequently. These role-players usually cling to 'realism' as an excuse whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that 'realism' is subjective to what makes sense within the setting rather than simply a matter of what makes sense within the real world.

 

Plus...just because someone is big and muscular it doesn't mean they're actually stronger than someone who is lean and quick on their feet. It's like people don't realise that a lot of muscle is just for show and isn't actually all that useful.

 

I often find myself letting out a sigh when role-playing Graeham because I deliberately created him with the intention of seeing him grow stronger over time through actual role-play. Meanwhile a lot of role-players create characters that are 'strong' and then seem intent on doing little beyond posturing/picking fights with characters that they sense aren't going to fight back through choice or ability.

 

Then there's those that just ignore what would make sense - such as those that decide to start a fight in the middle of the Quicksand or at an event and then walk away unscathed...when in reality the guards/hired help would intervene and have them thrown into a cell.

 

I suppose this post is all over the place though so apologies in advance! It's pretty early in the morning and there's a lot of different points that I wanted to address in passing.

 

I suppose at the end of the day what's most important isn't what a character can do but what they can't do. I find characters with flaws much more interesting than those that succeed at everything that they tackle. Plus I find it much more satisfying to indulge in a scene where a group of characters barely manage to take down a threat. It just allows for much more depth than a scene where someone charges in fearlessly, slays countless enemies and then walks away with barely a scratch.

[-no longer matters-]

Edited the OP with a clarification point to many people are focusing on the wrong aspect of this post.

[Gegenji]

Edited the OP with a clarification point to many people are focusing on the wrong aspect of this post.

 

I created a thread a while back that was... sorta? along the lines of your clarified point. I had just created Judge and my question was on how someone could - clearly and fairly to all involved - present a position of authority. You could easily say you're a Brass Blade, but when someone is acting out in the streets, what can/could/should you do regarding that?

 

I don't remember the finer details, since it was months back and I don't even recall which forum section it was in to hunt it down, but it really came down to the other person being willing to accept your position as someone in charge. Normally, it won't be a problem - an OOC PM saying "Hey, I'm a Brass Blade RPer, is it okay for me to come in and lay down some law in this situation?" and they'd likely be cool with it or possibly say that they already have someone coming in to "deal" with the situation. But then there's the self-proclaimed badasses that will remain defiant and unmoved no matter what happens, even if they're doing something as blatantly illegal as talking about all the void magic they've been using in the middle of the Quicksand.

 

It's just a matter of the format that you can't "force" authority on someone without metagaming and godmoding to some degree. The best you can really do is present yourself as a figure of authority as best you can and hope everyone plays along. I feel pretty lucky (and continually surprised and honored, in fact) that people openly consider Judge A Big Deal and will often listen to him if things start getting rowdy. And even then there's plenty of folks who would likely ignore his position as Overseer and continue to do their own thing regardless. The best I can do in that situation is try to intercede and hope they're willing to compromise a little bit for the sake of the event.

[Melodia]

It has nothing to do with role-play the majority of the time.

 

Actually, it's roleplay, so it has everything to do with roleplay.

 

 

Actually, you missed her point. In many of these cases where people act obnoxious in events, it has nothing to do with their character type or mentality. It has to do with exactly as was stated: someone is anonymous and decides to be a little troll for the event or at the very least, a troublemaking jerk, despite the fact that they would never behave this way ICly elsewhere or irl.

 

People just being publicly bombastic to get attention. Hmmm....where have I seen this before...?

[Hali]

For me, it honestly depends on the character. While, yes, there are situations where it's really just idiotic from an OOC viewpoint to resist authority and the like, some characters ICly may have authority issues, or truly feel they are that much of a hardass. I have both sides of that spectrum, to be honest.

 

Corelyn, if approached by an authority figure for doing something they are saying is illegal, will panic. Likely, she won't even have been trying to do anything out-of-bounds, but will immediately cease whatever it is she's asked not to do. She's not about to get into any trouble.

 

Dail'a, on the other hand... well, he's a prick at times - a totally anti-authority, tough-guy prick who can and will fight anyone if it looks fun and the opportunity presents itself. If some authority comes at him for doing something illegal, he could do anything from shrug it off and walk away to sass the hell out of them, or, if he's being detained, fight. Even if he's faced down by a pissed-off gigas, the otherwise dwarfed miqo is going to fight. He wants to fight, and isn't particularly afraid of losing.

 

It means nothing from me on an OOC level. It's just how the characters have been written.

 

 

At the same time, though, I have seen a lot of people "playing" characters who aren't even engaging in RP. They're just there as griefers. At that point, when the line becomes too blurry to tell, approach them in whispers or OOC. If, at that point, they come out to be trolls (or even bad RPers unwilling to work with you - I've seen plenty that are beyond hope, sadly, in all mediums), warn them that what they're doing is disruptive to you, personally, block them, then report them.

 

A;ways warn first - if you do, it makes for a better case when a GM reviews your report. Yes, it may cause people to become even more aggressive, but in the end, a short period of enduring their dickery is better when you find out action has been taken.

[Asmodean]

Most would say Asmodean is fearless for the way he is willing to toss himself into battle but really it only so others can fall back first. He wear heavy armor for more then just his own self-consciousness. It's to protect so better that he takes a blow a robed mage could never survive. Asmodean is a first in last out kind of person in combat and will only fall back once everyone else has.

 

He dose have a few real fears that will stop him from doing something but in combat he learned how to turn that off of the good of the group he is often fight along side.

 

For events I can understand this being a problem, but I have yet to see it as I have little time to rp sadly :cry:. I at least keep IC when at events so if asked I would have left regardless if it was a big bad roe or tiny lala asking me to leave.

[-no longer matters-]

Most would say Asmodean is fearless for the way he is willing to toss himself into battle but really it only so others can fall back first. He wear heavy armor for more then just his own self-consciousness. It's to protect so better that he takes a blow a robed mage could never survive. Asmodean is a first in last out kind of person in combat and will only fall back once everyone else has.

 

He dose have a few real fears that will stop him from doing something but in combat he learned how to turn that off of the good of the group he is often fight along side.

 

For events I can understand this being a problem, but I have yet to see it as I have little time to rp sadly :cry:. I at least keep IC when at events so if asked I would have left regardless if it was a big bad roe or tiny lala asking me to leave.

 

There's nothing wrong with being Fearless in a selfless way in the battle field. The problem is people are taking a "I ain't 'fraid of nuttin'" attitude to events letting people goad them in fights because they think they're Johnny Invincible, and when they are asked to cut it out they won't or claim innocence not realizing that by being goaded they're just as responsible as the person who started the ruckus, and play the hard ass to the authortive figure trying to disperse the problem, and then.. When finally asked to leave because they won't drop it refuses claiming they did nothing wrong... It's like people need to learn where the line is to tuck your tail and leave.

 

It's like people refuse to accept consequences for their actions.

 

If this happened on the open field and not at an event and I was Adventurer X to Their Adventurers Y and Z. I would not expect them to back down in that scenario.

[Trigonxv]

Long story short I guess is make sure for events if there is security make it clear what they will be doing and what they are allowed to do at the event and those participating will have to acknowledge that both ic and occ just so the event can proceed as planned if they are being a troll then just b list them and relay it to the event hosts and relevant people involved just so it doesn't become a distraction.

[Leggerless]

*snip it like a polaroid picture*

*snip snip*

 

It's just a matter of the format that you can't "force" authority on someone without metagaming and godmoding to some degree. The best you can really do is present yourself as a figure of authority as best you can and hope everyone plays along. I feel pretty lucky (and continually surprised and honored, in fact) that people openly consider Judge A Big Deal and will often listen to him if things start getting rowdy. And even then there's plenty of folks who would likely ignore his position as Overseer and continue to do their own thing regardless. The best I can do in that situation is try to intercede and hope they're willing to compromise a little bit for the sake of the event.

 

Ahah, there's the example I had on my mind but couldn't quite write it down!

 

Having done the Overseer business myself, I can confirm the "cannot force authority" segment. I'll concede the event has participants who already know not to mess with the Arbiter/Overseers so that eliminates over half of the potential drama. The best you can do is, like he says, establish yourself as an authority figure (guard, noble, etc.) and hope they will listen or compromise.

[Paradox]

In most cases, characters are fearless not because they go through great trials, but because as was stated before, there are no consequences to your characters acting like a colossal douche canoe because you need permission to look at someone funny. I don't even mean killing or trying to 'force' damage. You can't even start the beginnings of a fight with someone IC without a bunch of permission anymore in most cases. Everyone is all for spontaneous roleplay if they get to talk shit, or do cute slice of life stuff, but if someone wants to put a fist in their mouth for running it, then it's godmodding or doing something without permission and it's a cardinal sin. It's the same overall idea as being an internet tough guy. They run their mouth because they know it's very unlikely they'll face real consequences behind the keys.

[Val]

In most cases, characters are fearless not because they go through great trials, but because as was stated before, there are no consequences to your characters acting like a colossal douche canoe because you need permission to look at someone funny. I don't even mean killing or trying to 'force' damage. You can't even start the beginnings of a fight with someone IC without a bunch of permission anymore in most cases. Everyone is all for spontaneous roleplay if they get to talk shit, or do cute slice of life stuff, but if someone wants to put a fist in their mouth for running it, then it's godmodding or doing something without permission and it's a cardinal sin. It's the same overall idea as being an internet tough guy. They run their mouth because they know it's very unlikely they'll face real consequences behind the keys.

 

I kind of feel this is the case with a lot of RPers. They do a lot of stuff thinking there won't be any consequences. I'm personally of the mind that IC actions = IC consequences, and that's something we try to enforce in our FC and that I try to keep around. If someone continues to cause problems IC in the company, they'll eventually be removed--IC. If someone keeps picking at Val, he's eventually going to hit them because that's what he does, and if they get mad about it then I don't really much care. They shouldn't have put themselves in that position in the first place.

 

Though I will say I try to deviate/stay away from people that aren't willing to roll with the consequences of their character's actions. It annoys me to find someone that is willing to be a prick/cause problems/whatever but doesn't want anything bad to happen to their character in return.

[Chillsmack]

This always be a thing because people RP for different reasons. A lot of us roleplay as a form of story telling, and so while our characters are complex, as is our internal muse and love for said characters, ultimately the STORY is of more value and importance. We can have our characters fail, or screw up, or even have not-so-virtuous moments and it isn't personal.

 

For the other kind of RPers, though, everything about their character is personal. They RP to experience a fictional life as a fantasized version of themselves, and so anything that violates that fantasy doesn't sit well with them, and there is no greater example of busting someone's fantasized self-bubble like expecting or asking them to act "human" or flawed...or, you know, having consequences to their character's actions. These are the kind of RPers who make Mary Sues and Gary Stus.

[Dis]

I'm going to agree with some of the earlier points stated here.  There is a definite disconnect from our characters (not a bad thing), that leads to a lot of people either not understanding that IC actions have IC consequences, or not being willing to take those consequences into account. Chill is right that a lot of people want their character to be their idealized self, and so don’t like dealing with failures that might influence their character in a negative way.

 

The biggest time I often see the ‘consequence lapse’ is with characters who run their mouth or cause trouble, start arguments, or purposefully goad people, but then counter the IC negative reactions with an OOC comment of 'lol, but this character doesn't fight'.  That’s a terrible attitude to take.  If your character does something that will cause someone to hate them, you have to be willing to accept that while there will be characters who find it funny, there will also be characters who will be ready to drag your character out into the street and whip their ass for them like they’re a twelve year old.  Physical conflict happens in any dynamic world.  People shy away from it in real life because there are harsher laws preventing assault against someone.

 

But Eorzea isn’t the real world, and people fight all the time.  The best example is in the MSQ,very early on, where you’re in a street brawl in front of the Quicksand in Ul’dah.  Against a guy and his hired thugs that were hassling a woman.  The very world, while yes, there are some peaceful locations that aren’t touched much by direct conflict between people, is generally full of people who start fights and do terrible things to one another.

 

I’ve always been of the opinion that if a character exists, they will come into conflict at some point in time in their life.  This is especially true in a world where conflict is a central point of most people’s lives (class conflicts in Ul’dah that sometimes escalate, conflict in Limsa between pirate/privateer groups, conflict in Gridania with the Ixali, the Dragonsong war in Ishgard).  I feel as if the character that has never been in any conflict would feel too sheltered. And while that isn’t a problem, it’s a little disgusting that players use ‘My character doesn’t fight!’ OOC as a valid excuse to start fights, arguments, pick people apart, and be insulting ICly, and then avoid the consequences of their action as their character.  And while yes, you can say ‘Just avoid the people who play that way,’ it’s actually a pretty hefty chunk of the player base (not specific to the RPC, but role-players in general) that do this.

 

Or if there are consequences, they're waved off.  As far as the fearless thing, I think with me personally it depends on the character. Glioca is fearless because she's older, so she doesn't feel as if she has to worry too much when someone is trying to intimidate her.  She’s fully prepared that someone will eventually be able to beat her, but that doesn’t mean she’ll back down.  That said, she does her best not to start fights at organized events, with just one or two exceptions.  Aelden doesn’t show a lot of fear because he’s young, arrogant, and doesn’t know any better.

 

If someone was playing a character who didn’t respect authority, I could see them being arrogant and fearless, trying to ‘stick it to the man’, because that’s what they’re going for as their character.  But most of the time, it’s just a bleed over of ‘Well, without my permission, you can’t do anything to my character, and I don’t have to acknowledge you trying to intimidate me, so I’m going to have my character stand here and keep being a jackass, knowing you can’t do anything to get rid of me.’

 

Sorry about the length, got a little rambly there.

[Reiner Dorn]

Yeah, at events for me as the organizer, I find -most- if at least some of the folks respond to a whisper "Hey, there is quite a bit going on detracting from this event, and would appreciate putting the kibash on it so we don't make this a big thing in front of the crowd."

 

Continues, Then one more ooc warning of "End the disturbance please, or I will have to step in ICly and will have to put an end to it myself." 

 

So far at RS I've only had to browbeat the shit out of people. I've had too stop two spells after a match, but other than that it's just intercede myself and lay some law.

 

 

In Wildstar, I ended up in a similar position I am currently as a check and balance for forbidden magic and dark characters to have an antagonisic and back and forth with. I ran a guild of Judges, wildwest lawmen. And that since it was predominantly just walking up on some criminal rp'r doing outlaw stuff, An ooc opening is always best as the scene could be anything your not aware of. And to see if they even care, or if you care to deal with their brand of nasty.

 

And in CoH my guild played as a check to the rampant use of If you can't beat me in pvp then fuck off and get blacklisted for acting tough. We were hardcore in pvp to play the Player killer killers back then. Which that it was nearly fighting RP trolls and the so far end of crazy elitists we tended to just roll up and merc folks.

 

 

In summation. My thoughts of the community in FF is that the players are far easier to death with than the character most of the time. And as a bodyguard it's gotta be much tough to toss around validity, As the organizer and a lot of times my character personally knows folks who are screwing up, it's easy to just lay down. "Stop or get dropped." But man yeah, it's a crap situation a lot of the time

[LiadansWhisper]

My character Liadan actually isn't fearless (though people have accused me of playing a "fearless" character before).

 

Truth is, Liadan is pretty much constantly afraid or worried about something.  The difference is, in nearly every situation she's either got too much pride (it's a flaw, really >.>) to show it, or believes that showing fear will invite further scary moves (since you don't show fear to predators unless you want them to prey on you, as it were).

 

Sometimes characters are nearly all bluster with a core of insecurities.  

[Tumensuns]

I like this question.

 

It was a dilemma when I had played a villain character for an old game, and it was not always the most fun because 90% of the would-be heroes would always be snarky, and such. Like, I just murdered a whole village, and I have your team of people cornered, and you're going to stand there and give sass? Felt a bit disconnected.

 

Makes me miss the UO days when death was a possibility, and so was crime.

 

I'd like to say that Tumensuns would be afraid in some circumstances, but he's not a hero type so he wouldn't be in situations where he'd have any involvement in physical conflict, and there's not much you can do to cause fear in a guy who buries the dead and such, though I'd like to be mindful of situations that would.

 

But even saying it, I'm human and might make the same mistake most people make because the option of dying isn't that much of a reality in this games world, so you don't always actively think about it.

[mongi291]

Isaulde, being an Elezen, isn't exactly big and scary. Sure, she's tall, and she's supposed to have muscles (even though the character creator doesn't allow me to do that). But compared to Highlanders, Roegadyns and male Au Ras, she looks fragile as hell. So whenever she isn't alone or with someone she trusts, she's fully clad in black armor (soon to be replaced by the Esoterics DRK set), which can make every character look intimidating (except Lalafells).

[Mae]

While it adds something to the atmosphere to 'hire security' for an event, it should ultimately fall to the event organizers to police their events... and not just by ICly telling the security RP'ers to "take care of it" and then going back to their party without a care. They need to periodically announce OOCly that there is security/bouncers in circulation, identify them, and impress and that their directions need to be followed. They also need to back up the security/bouncers when they have to 'correct' disruptive behaviour and organizers most certainly need to be directly involved (even if it's in a strictly OOC fashion) when someone is being expelled.

 

Otherwise, a hired security/bouncer PC just appears to be a self-appointed vigilante at a party looking to ICly spoil someone else's good time.

 

Now... if a disruptive PC -still- doesn't take the hint from IC RP with security/bouncers and OOC communication from the event organizers and refuse to leave... then that's an issue with the player, not with their RP. Nothing you can really do about that, unfortunately.

[Flickering Ember]

I'd been meaning to respond to this topic for a while but for some reason I just haven't gotten around to it. The question is 'Are too many people 'fearless'? And to that I answer a resounding 'Yes.' 

 

I have absolutely noticed the unrealistic amounts of fearlessness in characters since my first RP character in a MMO but it became even more noticeable after diving into tabletop. As always, everything in tabletop depends on your group/DM, but played by the books, it is possible for your character to die at any given moment. 

 

This reality has absolutely encouraged me to play more conservatively with my characters and adds an intense story element to tabletop RP that MMO RP does not get. That said, I vastly prefer MMO RP. As I have made more characters, I have steered away from tough, and hardened warriors to characters who are quite capable of being frightened or freaked out by the occurrences of RP.

 

Having your character be afraid, beyond such things as phobias and extending into combat scenarios or frightening monsters, doesn't make your badass warrior less badass, it makes them human. I feel like it adds more fun elements and conflicts to RP that I personally would love to see more of. It's more interesting than no one ever reacting to big scary monster ever. I think being immune to it because "you see this stuff all the time" is not exactly compelling or correct 100% of the time. (or even the majority of the time)

 

It's a bit off topic but I also want to point out there is a difference between a 'fear' and a 'phobia.' I have a phobia IRL and phobias are such intense fears that they leak into your everyday life and can stop you from enjoying things that normal people often enjoy. Having a fear or a big fear of something is different. After living in a surburban area all my life and then moving to a metro area, I do have a fear of being mugged or picked off the streets but such a fear does not invade my everyday life the way my phobia does. 

 

Most people are simply afraid of spiders. 

A phobia of spiders would probably involve you not being able to look at them, leading to you obsessively scrubbing down your home and setting up spider traps everywhere to make sure they don't get near you, you check everywhere you go for spiders first before you sit down or put something on, when you go to a friend's house you realize their house has not been spider trapped so you patrol their house first before you can relax, you probably have trouble sleeping at night in fear of them or they are in your nightmares every single night.

 

 

Anyway, I think people would find some good RP opportunities if they allowed their character to feel fear once in a while. And not just fears of spiders or water or losing one's friends, but the very real of that axe dealing a fatal blow to you. If you don't, that's okay too though. I won't dictate how anyone should RP their characters.

[Caspar]

Also I would add that feigning fearlessness or self-deceiving to think you're fearless ca lead to some interesting situations, and might be fun to rp. I always imagine no one but the truly disturbed is without fear, at the very least some kind of insecure anxiety. There are no fearless people so much as those who ignore their fear, don't let it affect them, or are too ignorant to realize they should be afraid until it's too late.