White Mages in Othard?

[Averis]

So, I know that no one in Eorzea can RP as a White Mage due to the War of the Magi and the WoL snowflake+Padjal, but what about Othard?

 

Are there White Mages in Othard? Maybe some traveled there in the past? Are they controlled by a similar group as the Padjal? 

 

I've always been kinda miffed that I can't really RP as a White Mage, so I'm sort of wondering if this new land would offer a work-around.

 

 

(Note: I know many jobs can't really be RPed due to only -one- existing thanks to special snowflake syndrome.)

 

 

Nevermind... Apparently I'm just trying to be a special snowflake.

 

Staff note: Please do not blank posts in discussion forums, as per our posting rules and guidelines.

[Virella]

Wait a couple of more weeks, and who knows they might give us more lore on Othard and the classes/jobs to be found there!

[Kilieit]

Unconfirmed, but really probably not. White magic as a discipline originated in the Twelveswood for a reason, and we've not heard of any similar environments in Othard.

 

Like, if you can wait literally 2 weeks, we'll know for sure - but I really wouldn't get your hopes up.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

If such abilities existed in Othard, they likely wouldn't be referred to as White Magic/Succor as that specifically refers to the magic style that flourished in Amdapor before the War of Magi, later to be practiced only by Padjal and then the Warrior of Light.

 

But if we take the stories 2.0 and 3.0 have presented us, it does certainly look like White Magic could become more accessible later in the future. 2.0 taught us that the Padjals could teach an outsider. 3.0 taught us that they were willing to leave the Black Shroud. Perhaps 4.0 will further expand this?

 

--

 

I also find it important to note that many of the iconic Final Fantasy jobs have their own restrictions, even if some are much easier to get past than others. Is it simply the title of "White Mage" that you're looking for or their actual role in a story? The latter is quite accessible without the label.

[Kismet]

I also find it important to note that many of the iconic Final Fantasy jobs have their own restrictions, even if some are much easier to get past than others. Is it simply the title of "White Mage" that you're looking for or their actual role in a story? The latter is quite accessible without the label.

 

^ This.

 

I continue to find it hard to understand why people get so hung up on specific titles when with just a little imagination and putting some creative flair on your emotes, you can accomplish much of the same style/aesthetic and similar abilities. This is a large part of the reason I scrapped the character concept I used to roll with that was a White Mage. Because once I devoured all of the lore and mechanics about the job... I didn't see what would it offer me in terms of RP other than highlighting myself as a special snowflake.

 

While simply being a Conjurer, you're still a healer. You can still save people's lives. You can still use big, bright, sparkly magic. It's not really that big of a deal if you don't specifically have access to Holy or Benediction or w/e. And nothing's stopping you from RPing that your Conjurer can use an ability that rejuvenates their allies and damages the enemy at the same time (something similar in nature to Assize). Just, y'know... don't refer to it specifically by name and you're probably good.

[LiadansWhisper]

So, I know that no one in Eorzea can RP as a White Mage due to the War of the Magi and the WoL snowflake+Padjal, but what about Othard?

 

This isn't really accurate. A more accurate statement would be that it's very, very hard, if not impossible, to come into the knowledge of Succor without being directly trained by a Padjal, as they are currently the only known repositories of the knowledge.

 

Are there White Mages in Othard? Maybe some traveled there in the past? Are they controlled by a similar group as the Padjal?

 

Probably not. If anything, it's far more likely that we might run into an old-style White Mage in Ala Mhigo, given that we know that refugees from Amdapor fled into the land that later became Ala Mhigo.

 

I've always been kinda miffed that I can't really RP as a White Mage, so I'm sort of wondering if this new land would offer a work-around.

 

Actually, you absolutely can RP as a White Mage, if you so desire. You just have to come up with a believable story as to why the Padjal would have trained your character in the art, or how you gained access to the knowledge outside of Padjal training. That's it.

 

You just have to make it believable. You just have to sell, as it were, the story really, really well.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

Actually, you absolutely can RP as a White Mage, if you so desire.  You just have to come up with a believable story as to why the Padjal would have trained your character in the art, or how you gained access to the knowledge outside of Padjal training.  That's it.

 

You just have to make it believable.  You just have to sell, as it were, the story really, really well.

 

...and also accept that you'll be labeled, regardless of the story's factual plausibility, as a total snowflake. But if one can live with people thinking that (and that's really just a question of one's sensitivity as an individual), then any job in the lore is accessible even without a story behind it (the age old "How did you learn White Magic?" "None of your business." comes to mind).

[V'aleera]

I continue to find it hard to understand why people get so hung up on specific titles

 

To be fair, Final Fantasy as a series has made it a point to be hung up on titles.

[LiadansWhisper]

Actually, you absolutely can RP as a White Mage, if you so desire.  You just have to come up with a believable story as to why the Padjal would have trained your character in the art, or how you gained access to the knowledge outside of Padjal training.  That's it.

 

You just have to make it believable.  You just have to sell, as it were, the story really, really well.

 

...and also accept that you'll be labeled, regardless of the story's factual plausibility, as a total snowflake. But if one can live with people thinking that (and that's really just a question of one's sensitivity as an individual), then any job in the lore is accessible even without a story behind it (the age old "How did you learn White Magic?" "None of your business." comes to mind).

 

I've seen people do an amazing job with story justifying how it happened. Personally, I prefer stories that happen thru rp.

 

I stopped caring about what other people outside of my rp groups think about my character or my rp several years ago.

[Edda]

Nevermind... Apparently I'm just trying to be a special snowflake.

 

Don't be like that OP.

 

Some people will say you are but who cares? There are just as many people who wouldn't bat an eye. You do you.

[LiadansWhisper]

Nevermind... Apparently I'm just trying to be a special snowflake.

 

Don't be like that OP.

 

Some people will say you are but who cares? There are just as many people who wouldn't bat an eye. You do you.

 

^^

 

Op you have to grow thicker skin. Ultimately, who cares what people on the internet think anyway?

[Kismet]

OP... At the end of the day, no matter what you decide to do? Write it well.

 

Do that and the people who actually matter to you and are worth caring about? They won't be too concerned with the specifics. I ensure you that's what the majority of folks here encourage.

[Arashin Kujqai]

^ as many posts have already said. By the end of the day, are you having fun? Do you enjoy writing your character? Do you like what's happening with it all and feel proud of your character's story? Then go for it, some people are stricter about it, some aren't, but neither matter so long as you're enjoying yourself.

 

Personal belief of mine that I follow is, if you're not okay with RP'ing with my character as he is.... Chances are you're not someone I want to RP with.

 

 

I've gone through 3 personas (this being my third) for RP. My first being a bit of a wreck in a similar situation as this. I ended up not liking it, not because of the lore behind dragoons making it difficult, but I didn't like his story I wrote and I felt a lil silly in the personality/traits I ended up choosing. I realized I wasn't enjoying how it felt because I was narrowing my sight on it and the title I wanted. Then I ended up fixing my char up to be a treasure hunter, new personality, different traits. I could've kept him a dragoon or if I wanted to, lancer, but I liked machinist at the time and I happened to like the idea of having a gun to go raiding aquapolis in with the Steel Blue firearm that was a relic of Ishgardian war.

 

Now look at me, I'm a red mage/magic philosopher before the class is even out.... Obviously I'm not gonna step out of bounds and make claims when I don't have lore/knowledge of the class yet, but I'm certainly not gonna associate myself in RP with someone who's gonna be a stickler and pester me about titles. At the same time, I wrote my char to be comfortable around the concept of being one even without the knowledge we'll have in less than 2 weeks. I'm pretty damn proud of it too and have only have had fun times in RP... so I'm pretty happy with everyone I've RP'd with so far and myself in the end.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

So, I know that no one in Eorzea can RP as a White Mage due to the War of the Magi and the WoL snowflake+Padjal, but what about Othard?

 

Are there White Mages in Othard? Maybe some traveled there in the past? Are they controlled by a similar group as the Padjal? 

 

I've always been kinda miffed that I can't really RP as a White Mage, so I'm sort of wondering if this new land would offer a work-around.

 

 

(Note: I know many jobs can't really be RPed due to only -one- existing thanks to special snowflake syndrome.)

 

 

 

Nevermind... Apparently I'm just trying to be a special snowflake.

 

Staff note: Please do not blank posts in discussion forums, as per our posting rules and guidelines.

 

Please note the difference between the Lore Discussion forum and the Character Workshop forum. While they may share significant overlap, they are moderated differently. I've reverted your post-blanking because the question itself is still valid and lore-related. For specifically your character, a thread should be made in Character Workshop. Lore Discussion forum threads are for exactly that.

 

--

 

Staff-things aside, people already beat me to what I was going to say. Just RP the concept if that's what you want to do. You can't appease everyone and trying to do so all the time just makes RP more of a job than a past time. Sure, some people might avoid you if you want to be an unconventional White Mage within FFXIV's lore, but I mean, they might just avoid you because they're not into that RP anyways. Or maybe they will be interested and your story, writing, and/or justification will be something you can use in RP. I'd suggest to think it over and figure out what kind of story you're trying to make with other people. What major difference does it make to call your character a healer, a hearer, a conjurer, or a mage that is somehow different than calling your character a White Mage, which refers to a very particular thing in this game?

[Kilieit]

Although my post was blunt, I don't think it was harsh - you asked for lore, and I told you honestly what there was(n't) and my opinion on what was likely to come next fortnight.

 

If the question wasn't, "will there be Othardian white mages", and was instead "I really like [insert specific aspect(s) of WHM concept here] but I know WHMs are limited in the lore, what can I do to still include it in my RP", then my post would have been different.

 

OP, I'd encourage you to post in the Character Workshop forum so we all can talk a bit more about how your concept can work. I think everyone here has tried to be helpful and to answer the question you asked. I'm sure we'll all do the same if you decide to come at the situation from a different angle, with a different question.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

 

I've seen people do an amazing job with story justifying how it happened. Personally, I prefer stories that happen thru rp.

 

I stopped caring about what other people outside of my rp groups think about my character or my rp several years ago.

 

Exactly!

 

OP, make no mistake, regardless of justification and story a character who is claimed to be a White Mage ICly will definitely be a snowflake... but that isn't inherently bad nor is it something for you to feel upset about. I'd argue that majority of our most celebrated literary and cinematic heroes are snowflakes! Hardly any of them are just everyday people with ordinary capabilities who somehow lead us on a compelling tale - or the ones who are, usually they're in a sidekick role rather than the main hero of the story.

[Virella]

Exactly what people said above! There's ways to make it work.

 

Look at my own character. She's a part of a cult who got slaughtered in the past. How did I make it work? Well lore did tell us that there were more Fist of Rhalgr temples, so I made her an older woman, who grew up in one of these remote temples. That way she could still be believable on the skillset and knowledge she has. It wouldn't work with a younger character, given most Fist of Rhalgr were killed and no one really knows what's going on with them.

 

Sometimes you just got to tweak and adjust your character a little bit to make it work. I mean, hell, you could always go "Oh my character is a conjurer and SUPER interested in White Magic" and make her a scholarly type who's trying to uncover more about that type of magic? Not that she will have access to it, but you can still play with the white mage concept to some degree! Chasing a concept can be very interesting as well. She doesn't have to be one, but she can still dream of becoming one!

[LiadansWhisper]

Sometimes you just got to tweak and adjust your character a little bit to make it work. I mean, hell, you could always go "Oh my character is a conjurer and SUPER interested in White Magic" and make her a scholarly type who's trying to uncover more about that type of magic? Not that she will have access to it, but you can still play with the white mage concept to some degree! Chasing a concept can be very interesting as well. She doesn't have to be one, but she can still dream of becoming one!

 

I was actually talking about this to someone last night. Even having access to White Magic doesn't mean you'd have any skill in it. I honestly imagine that the abilities of the Padjal pale in comparison with the heights that Amdapor reached with the art. There's probably an immense amount of knowledge that's simply been buried or lost.

 

This is also, to an extent, why I favor gaining knowledge/access to the really restricted Jobs via in-game RP. These are heights to be aspired to - something to work toward. I feel like it would be less of an experience if you show up already knowing how everything works.

 

I digress.

[Reylinn]

Wouldn't a lot of the restrictions on the possibilities of being a WHM be mitigated by the weakening of elementals due to the 1.0 cataclysm and the opening up of Amdapor Keep/Lost City? I mean in the SCH quest you trip over a SCH soulstone in there. Wouldn't it be far more likely to find a WHM one? Also is there anything in game that indicates that WHM is illegal/forbidden outside the Black Shroud? I mean I might be way off but this seems kinda legit to me.

[Aife]

White mage? Not as far as any lore I've read but you could always be a bit creative and bend lore a bit. Play a miko or some other far eastern themed healer with similar spell casting abilities as a conjurer? I don't see why there wouldn't be powerful (not necessary white mages) healers perhaps on the same scale as white mages? A lot of far eastern rpers bend lore or integrate current lore into something far eastern themed. With such limited lore in general, it's really not that unusual.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

4 hours ago, Reylinn said:

Wouldn't a lot of the restrictions on the possibilities of being a WHM be mitigated by the weakening of elementals due to the 1.0 cataclysm and the opening up of Amdapor Keep/Lost City?

 

While the Calamity weakened the Elementals, they're still excruciatingly more powerful than people. It should be noted that the Elementals more grant permission to use White Magic (here-on referred to as Succor) which they previously only were OK with Padjals teaching other Padjals. The weaking of the Hedge and other hidden off sections of the Black Shroud does ease some restrictions, which I'll get to in the next block.

 

4 hours ago, Reylinn said:

I mean in the SCH quest you trip over a SCH soulstone in there. Wouldn't it be far more likely to find a WHM one? Also is there anything in game that indicates that WHM is illegal/forbidden outside the Black Shroud?

 

Yes, it's possible that one could find a White Mage soulstone in the ruins of the Lost City of Amdapor. (Probably next to all those monsters that would kill anyone who isn't on par with the Warrior of Light or their companions.) The legality of White Magic is something more debated among players. Previously, the only ones who could cast it were trained Padjals. Who stayed in the Black Shroud at all times. The 3.0 WHM quests did open this up a little, as they found that outside factors were affecting the forest and were eventually granted a temporary leave to investigate. (Think of like the Catholic Pope leaving the Vatican.) 

 

But assuming you had a character who found a soul stone, that doesn't immediately grant all of its knowledge onto the holder. Soulstones are more like shorthands, cheat notes, or guides on how to do something someone else once learned. Effectively crystallized memories and experiences, similar to materia in that regard. By continued study and becoming in-tune with the soul stone, people gain access to what's held within. 

 

From there, assuming that you've not only found a WHM soulstone, but have begun to learn Succor whether from some very dated book, or through "nefarious means" as one of the FFXIV Lore writers put it, yes, you'd be able to use some Succor. It might not quite resemble the spells and techniques that the Padjal deemed OK to share with the Warrior of Light. The Elementals may not like it if you cast it in their forest. And to the average person, they'll likely assume you're just casting some really fancy conjury or local equivalent.

[Valence]

8 hours ago, Reylinn said:

Wouldn't a lot of the restrictions on the possibilities of being a WHM be mitigated by the weakening of elementals due to the 1.0 cataclysm and the opening up of Amdapor Keep/Lost City? I mean in the SCH quest you trip over a SCH soulstone in there. Wouldn't it be far more likely to find a WHM one? Also is there anything in game that indicates that WHM is illegal/forbidden outside the Black Shroud? I mean I might be way off but this seems kinda legit to me.

 

A weakening of the Elementals, probably not. The opening of Amdapor certainly (past the quest for unlocking Amdapor city especially where the WoL seems to be one of the first to really get deeper in there and gets rid of Diabolos presence). Those ruins are still guarded by wailers of course, but are more easily penetrable. 

 

Any job, absolutely any job can give your the opportunity to find a soul crystal and learn it that way. Even White Mage. Job "snowflakism" in roleplay in my opinion can be broken into several tiers:

 

- Find a mentor of said job, like in most quests ingame. Without a soulstone, the work and learning will be more painful, but it will still go relatively well depending on your mentor's experience and knowledge, while a soul crystal can go a long way to cover the holes in the knowledge of said mentor, especially in the case of Y'mithra with the summoner quests for example. In roleplay of course, it's probably a lot easier to find a mentor for a job like ninja since it's still a wellestablished art, unlike white mage, where all bearers of the art disappeared and you can basically only count on padjals as far as we know so far. Padjals that will not be willing to teach you, period, unless you're even more snowflaky than the WoL himself. 

 

- Find a job crystal somehow on your own. It asks for your character to actually have already acquired certain basis that can help the soulstone to open up and start teaching things it deems them worthy of. Works like a jedi holocron. This will be subject to trial and error, possible dangers (cf casters or machinist, or maybe bard, where personal aetherial reserves are involved), and be probably slower.

 

- Learn a job without a soul crystal or a mentor, through books, libraries, scattered texts... A work of a lifetime really. And knowledge about certain jobs is very scarse or hard to find.

 

So, any job is legit possible. All jobs are somewhat presented as unique, elite arts, and often forbidden and/or lost for eons. Some jobs are still active and teached, with various restriction like being able to enter a shinobi clan for ninja, or the Seikisegumi for samurai, or the very closed circle of the Knights Dragoons that are only a dozen these days (counting famous NPCs). It's possible to work around it, find explanations, as usual. And some jobs are totally lost or forgotten. Some other jobs like bard or summoner are just starting to get brought back to life, and machinist is brand new: those jobs are obviously still in their infancy in terms of mastery by all of their disciples. White Mage is, of course, one of the hardest to justify is all, but it doesn't mean wanabe white mages can't exist due to soulstone access.

 

There is sources ingame that makes me think that yes, War of Magi arts, aka black and white magic, are forbidden everywhere in Eorzea. The Black Mage quests actually brings a Hearer from the Twelveswood to play black magic police and tell everyone involved how illegal this is and how he will have to bring all those wanabe black mages to justice in the conjurer guild. 

 

 

Note: I have yet to find any evidence ingame or in the lorebook that white magic is actually refered to as the art of Succor (capital S). At best, it's ambigous but it seems to always point at a descriptive rather than an alternative name, especially in other translations where it isn't even capitalized afaik.

Edited May 7, 2018 by Valence

[LiadansWhisper]

15 hours ago, Reylinn said:

Wouldn't a lot of the restrictions on the possibilities of being a WHM be mitigated by the weakening of elementals due to the 1.0 cataclysm and the opening up of Amdapor Keep/Lost City?

 

Well, ah, no, not really, since they don't actually control the use of Succor.  No one was left around to teach it (...that we know of...) and after that they only taught it to the Padjal, who haven't taught it to anyone else but the Warrior of Light.  Probably.

 

15 hours ago, Reylinn said:

I mean in the SCH quest you trip over a SCH soulstone in there. Wouldn't it be far more likely to find a WHM one?

 

I mean, you can say you found one if you want.  I maintain that a White Mage soulstone is not, however, required to actually learn White Magic.  It just makes it easier.  Still, as Franz pointed out, there are really heinous monsters in those ruins.  Most people wouldn't survive the expedition.

 

15 hours ago, Reylinn said:

Also is there anything in game that indicates that WHM is illegal/forbidden outside the Black Shroud?

 

Sources in-game seem to suggest that both schools are forbidden, but also that they are both forgotten.  At one point after the Calamity that ended the Fifth Astral Era, at least, people were actively hunting down both White and Black Mages.

 

7 hours ago, Valence said:

Note: I have yet to find any evidence ingame or in the lorebook that white magic is actually refered to as the art of Succor (capital S). At best, it's ambigous but it seems to always point at a descriptive rather than an alternative name, especially in other translations where it isn't even capitalized afaik.

 

Then you haven't been looking very hard.

https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=13072&pid=206088#pid206088

 

Quote

Of their own free will, they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own. Till such time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm, together with my kindred, I shall remain by thy side.

 

The speaker is Oha-Sok, the Elemental who gives you your White Mage vestments in 1.0.

Edited May 8, 2018 by LiadansWhisper

[Valence]

8 hours ago, LiadansWhisper said:

Then you haven't been looking very hard.

https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=13072&pid=206088#pid206088

 

I fail to see how any of those quotes show that White Magic is called Succor. None. Period.

 

They could have called that "the garb of Healing" or anything along those lines that it would have been the same. 

 

If you have better sources and quotes that actually show it without any ambiguity, since you have obviously been looking much harder than me, feel free to actually share. I have nothing against being proven wrong. I actually have no opinion on the matter other than I have yet to see any clear evidence of that fact.

 

My only suspicion at this point is that it is a fanon born out of a misunderstanding of quotes, that aren't legion to begin with.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Valence

[Sounsyy]

19 hours ago, Valence said:

Note: I have yet to find any evidence ingame or in the lorebook that white magic is actually refered to as the art of Succor (capital S). At best, it's ambigous but it seems to always point at a descriptive rather than an alternative name, especially in other translations where it isn't even capitalized afaik.

 

Valence is correct on this point, and I'm pretty sure the fault lies with me and my older posts where I used the two terms interchangeably due to the frequency of "succor" being used in the 1.0 quests to describe White Mage and Magic. My use of "Succor" was incorrect, I've just not had the time or energy to go back to years old posts to edit with the stuff I've learned since.

 

Raya-O-Senna: "I bid you journey forth to quell the keening of the elementals throughout Eorzea. And, as you act in my name, I hereby permit you the use of white magic. Take here this linkpearl and the Soul of the White Mage. The latter is an ancient crystal imbued with the light of succor - by its power, the forbidden art will be yours to wield, albeit within the bounds of your skill as a conjurer. To walk the path of the white mage is to devote oneself to the salving of hurts and the lifting of misery - ours is the hand othat proffers comfort."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "It was this desire that brought forth black magic, the arcane art of destruction, into the world. In order that this force of chaos be kept in check and balance preserved, at roughly the same point in history, white magic, the arcane art of succor, came into existence."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater power─-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "So these are the artifacts... They are indeed aglow with the light of succor."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "I have explored every avenue known to me, exhausted every store of knowledge...yet I could not find so much as a single reference to its whereabouts. And now our time is spent. The hour of reckoning is upon us, and we must needs act, with or without all five artifacts of succor. Sounsyy, your final mission is thus: you are to go forth and grant peace unto the elementals. The time is long past that men honor the oath made in the pact of Gelmorra--the oath to shine the light of succor throughout Eorzea. I will tell it to you plain: this task would ask much of the most experienced white mage. Yet it was through your eyes that Oha-Sok saw hope in mankind. We must pray that her kindred can be made to see the same."

 

Oha-Sok: "O child of gentle heart... My kindred acknowledge thy fervent wish for peace. Thine is a heart that brimmeth with compassion─a compassion that knoweth not fear, and favoreth not friend o'er foe. It is to that compassion that my kindred and I shall trust. Of their own free will, they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own. Warmth begetteth warmth, and hope begetteth hope. Till such time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm, together with my kindred, I shall remain by thy side."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "That the final artifact of succor would be Oha-Sok herself... That certainly explains why we were unable to locate it. Pray forgive my outburst─I would not have believed such a thing possible."

 

 

In ARR and beyond, Raya-O continues to use the "light of succor" as before (though with far less frequency), but she tacks on "and solace" at the end to really dispel any ambiguity that White Magic is less the "Art of Succor" and is more accurately the "art of healing and comfort". 

 

Raya-O-Senna: "Remember this, under no circumstances must you allow your anger and fear to overcome you. As practitioners of white magic─the magic of succor and solace─such emotions are anathema to our very existence."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "In the short time I have known you, Sounsyy, you have grown into a fine white mage. I am honored to call you my peer. Use your powers in moderation, and let compassion be your guide, and I have no doubt that you will bring succor and solace wherever your journey takes you."

 

Raya-O-Senna: "May the light of succor and solace shine wheresoever you may go!"

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sounsyy