Patch 2.41 Notes

[Zyrusticae]

The biggest and most important point is really the fact that raiding makes people management a required skill to the extent that, at least to me, it feels far more like a second job and much, much less like something I'm doing for funsies (yes, I know I've been belaboring this point a bit excessively by now but it bears repeating). I mean, we're talking management skills that would very easily serve you for anything else - that includes, you know, things that make you money IRL. Framed in that sort of way I can't help but think what a waste it all is.

 

I mean, okay, I get some folks find that sort of thing fun but... seriously, with the right people ANYTHING becomes fun. The game is not enabling that, it's just forcing the issue by making it a basic requirement. And I don't enjoy or appreciate that.

 

I think it says something that I'm more willing to bash my head against the wall of immature and incompetent teammates in League of Legends (or even Frontlines) than I am to try to break into the mountain that is the raiding scene. It's a barrier that really stands all on its own.

 

Remember when Ampador Keep was the single best dungeon to run for myth and loads of people couldn't grok the DPS check? I mean, that wasn't even that hard, but it was still too much for a significant proportion of the playerbase. And then it got nerfed. Pharos Sirius, likewise (though to be fair, Siren was/is kind of mechanical overload for a dungeon boss).

 

It's funny, actually, now that I think about it. PSO2 is constantly derided for being piss-easy for high-level, geared, and skilled players who have nothing to challenge themselves with whatsoever (aside from occasional tower defense runs). But that's only true for the most dedicated portion of the playerbase; the rest of the playerbase, the "average" players, are served quite well with such an easy difficulty level, and SEGA is rewarded for it with absolutely insane revenue. Stories like this make it far too easy to question the efficacy of putting such ridiculously hardcore content front-and-center like Squeenix does. I mean... those players are literally 0.5% of the playerbase. Maybe even less than that.

 

I get that having it there looks good. It appeases the e-peen players to some extent, gives them some sort of bragging rights (even if I reserve the right to sneer at them for it). It's more for the game's image than anything else. Yet I wonder if that's actually worth it? I wonder if it actually hurts the game as much as it helps, because, seriously, it's just a massive brick wall for people to band together and bash their heads against repeatedly until it crumbles under the force of their collective head-smacks (and unfortunately a lot of players lack either the strength or the endurance to just keep smacking away at it and oh wow I am really running away with this analogy *ahem*). How much value does an experience like that actually have?

 

Then again, maybe this is actually useful as a training tool for would-be low-level managers!

 

...Anyway, yeah, I'm rambling. Just needed to get this off my chest. Maybe this helps explain why I'm so adamantly against Coil and content like it from its very foundation. Maybe not. Hmm-hmm, yeah.

[Gegenji]

I get that having it there looks good. It appeases the e-peen players to some extent, gives them some sort of bragging rights (even if I reserve the right to sneer at them for it). It's more for the game's image than anything else. Yet I wonder if that's actually worth it? I wonder if it actually hurts the game as much as it helps, because, seriously, it's just a massive brick wall for people to band together and bash their heads against repeatedly until it crumbles under the force of their collective head-smacks (and unfortunately a lot of players lack either the strength or the endurance to just keep smacking away at it and oh wow I am really running away with this analogy *ahem*).  How much value does an experience like that actually have?

 

I may not do it anymore, but there was a sort of visceral feeling of accomplishment when overcoming raid bosses in WoW. I didn't face it because of e-peen, I challenged it because I wanted to see what was beyond the normal. What few people actually got to see and participate in. That in and of itself was enticing to me.

 

You bang your head against a wall, yes, if I may use your metaphor. And you do it often, oh so often. But when you break through, you're like the Kool-Aid Man - "OH YEAH!" You get tense and nervous as you realized you're gonna do it and when you DO... the euphoria is something else. The gear just makes the deal sweeter. You've accomplished what few have done AND you get some neat stuff on top of it.

 

That was never really the problem with me, though. It was the guild politics. It was the people who used our guild as a stepping stone to get gear before bailing for a further-progressed guild. It was spats over inane nonsense between members and the audacity of others to demand more than their own fair share. I literally had a tank bail in the middle of a classic Molten Core run because he demanded he get one of the Thunderfury wraps if it dropped, "because he's main tank." It was the drama, it was the drama that burned me out of raiding, and makes me so tentative about starting up again.

 

To that regard, I liked WoW's Looking for Raid. I like the Duty Finder. Sure, you will oft have to deal with jerks and idiots and elitists... but only for that fight, for that dungeon. You don't know these people, you don't NEED to know these people.

 

Afterwards, you can say "well, that was obnoxious" if they were bad and then go back to yelling at mobs ten levels lower than you aggroing on you while you're trying to transport pumpkin bombs until you feel better. Or break out your Opo-opo and run around in Hide with it on your head, proclaiming you've perfected "hovermonkey technology." You're done with it, you've washed your hands clean... rather than have to deal with the fallout in guild chat and be left dreading trying again the next raid day.

 

... Holy crap that got lengthier and more visceral than I intended. Point stands, though.

 

...

 

*breaks out Opo-opo minion*

[Warren Castille]

It's actually counter-productive to have that many management types in a raiding group. Too many chefs something something soup.

 

Sometimes all you need to succeed is a couple of people with a gameplan and some old fashioned working cogs that know their movements. The hardest part, the wall of raiding, is learning how everything is supposed to move. Every single part of every single Coil fight is a structured set of things that will more-or-less operate the same exact way every week. For a lot of the fights, once you've got a team capable of taking them down, you will take them down for the rest of time (as long as you don't get rusty). There's very little chance involved outside of who gets targeted for what with specific things.

 

I understand it's not for everyone, and I understand they put some delicious stuff behind these walls, but it deserves a place there. 1.0 storyline was HARD, thanks in no part to the broken game itself (hi 2 u paladin "tanking") and even back then, you didn't get a group of randoms together to just go spank Nael. I know this because my attempts flamed out long before that.

 

Out of curiosity, have you tried to tackle Coil? It's not so bad if you've got a team willing to stick it through, and the wave of accomplishment that comes with downing a fight that gave you trouble isn't really expressible with written language.

 

Also, leading raids isn't just for low-level management. You'd probably be surprised at the types who enjoy the activity.

[Zhavi]

The biggest and most important point is really the fact that raiding makes people management a required skill to the extent that, at least to me, it feels far more like a second job and much, much less like something I'm doing for funsies (yes, I know I've been belaboring this point a bit excessively by now but it bears repeating). I mean, we're talking management skills that would very easily serve you for anything else - that includes, you know, things that make you money IRL. Framed in that sort of way I can't help but think what a waste it all is.

 

I mean, okay, I get some folks find that sort of thing fun but... seriously, with the right people ANYTHING becomes fun. The game is not enabling that, it's just forcing the issue by making it a basic requirement. And I don't enjoy or appreciate that.

 

I think it says something that I'm more willing to bash my head against the wall of immature and incompetent teammates in League of Legends (or even Frontlines) than I am to try to break into the mountain that is the raiding scene. It's a barrier that really stands all on its own.

 

Remember when Ampador Keep was the single best dungeon to run for myth and loads of people couldn't grok the DPS check? I mean, that wasn't even that hard, but it was still too much for a significant proportion of the playerbase. And then it got nerfed. Pharos Sirius, likewise (though to be fair, Siren was/is kind of mechanical overload for a dungeon boss).

 

It's funny, actually, now that I think about it. PSO2 is constantly derided for being piss-easy for high-level, geared, and skilled players who have nothing to challenge themselves with whatsoever (aside from occasional tower defense runs). But that's only true for the most dedicated portion of the playerbase; the rest of the playerbase, the "average" players, are served quite well with such an easy difficulty level, and SEGA is rewarded for it with absolutely insane revenue. Stories like this make it far too easy to question the efficacy of putting such ridiculously hardcore content front-and-center like Squeenix does. I mean... those players are literally 0.5% of the playerbase. Maybe even less than that.

 

I get that having it there looks good. It appeases the e-peen players to some extent, gives them some sort of bragging rights (even if I reserve the right to sneer at them for it). It's more for the game's image than anything else. Yet I wonder if that's actually worth it? I wonder if it actually hurts the game as much as it helps, because, seriously, it's just a massive brick wall for people to band together and bash their heads against repeatedly until it crumbles under the force of their collective head-smacks (and unfortunately a lot of players lack either the strength or the endurance to just keep smacking away at it and oh wow I am really running away with this analogy *ahem*). How much value does an experience like that actually have?

 

Then again, maybe this is actually useful as a training tool for would-be low-level managers!

 

...Anyway, yeah, I'm rambling. Just needed to get this off my chest. Maybe this helps explain why I'm so adamantly against Coil and content like it from its very foundation. Maybe not. Hmm-hmm, yeah.

 

For some, the value of such an experience is none at all.

 

For others, however, it's how they choose to push themselves in their free time, and how they have fun.

 

There will always be a trade-off, no matter what any game does in regards to difficulty. Players who relax by seeing the content won't appreciate it when they feel like there is a barrier to entry they can't surmount. Players who relax by having to push and struggle and put in hours of efforts in order to overcome a barrier to entry won't appreciate it when they feel like their effort is being dismissed or things aren't hard enough for them. The ideal for developers is to find a balance between the two groups -- but there will always be people who want a specific, tailored experience, and if they can't get it in one place they'll look elsewhere.

[Zyrusticae]

I may not do it anymore, but there was a sort of visceral feeling of accomplishment when overcoming raid bosses in WoW. I didn't face it because of e-peen, I challenged it because I wanted to see what was beyond the normal. What few people actually got to see and participate in.

 

You bang your head against a wall, yes. And you do it often. But when you break through, you're like the Kool-Aid Man - "OH YEAH!" The gear just makes the deal sweeter. You've accomplished what few have done AND you get some neat stuff on top of it.

[...]

Out of curiosity' date=' have you tried to tackle Coil? It's not so bad if you've got a team willing to stick it through, and the wave of accomplishment that comes with downing a fight that gave you trouble isn't really expressible with written language.[/quote']I downed Titan EX.

 

The difference between you and I was that I did NOT feel a wave of accomplishment. I felt a wave of relief. "THE TRIAL IS FINALLY OVER. I CAN MOVE ON WITH MY LIFE!" It was an obstacle to be overcome and nothing more.

 

Before that I spent so much time watching people get hit by things that never once even touched me and it was just so goddamn frustrating and stupid and GODS WHY DO PEOPLE EVEN BOTHER WITH THIS and UGH NO MORE JUST MOVE FASTER DAMN YOU and WHY ARE YOU STILL GETTING HIT BY THAT IT'S SO TELEGRAPHED OMG

 

Of course I never said any of this out loud. But that was my mindset at the time and I have zero interest in going through that ever again. Never! Ever! Again!

 

It's actually counter-productive to have that many management types in a raiding group. Too many chefs something something soup.

 

Sometimes all you need to succeed is a couple of people with a gameplan and some old fashioned working cogs that know their movements. The hardest part, the wall of raiding, is learning how everything is supposed to move. Every single part of every single Coil fight is a structured set of things that will more-or-less operate the same exact way every week. For a lot of the fights, once you've got a team capable of taking them down, you will take them down for the rest of time (as long as you don't get rusty). There's very little chance involved outside of who gets targeted for what with specific things.

 

I understand it's not for everyone, and I understand they put some delicious stuff behind these walls, but it deserves a place there. 1.0 storyline was HARD, thanks in no part to the broken game itself (hi 2 u paladin "tanking") and even back then, you didn't get a group of randoms together to just go spank Nael. I know this because my attempts flamed out long before that.

 

[...]

 

Also, leading raids isn't just for low-level management. You'd probably be surprised at the types who enjoy the activity.

The management part comes in when you try to wrangle a group out of nothing.

 

Which is what I have.

 

Nothing.

 

...Well, okay, you guys exist, I guess. But I'm not going to be the one putting together that group. I simply do not have the interest or the wherewithal or the skills to do so. Sorry, guys.

[Gegenji]

Before that I spent so much time watching people get hit by things that never once even touched me and it was just so goddamn frustrating and stupid and GODS WHY DO PEOPLE EVEN BOTHER WITH THIS and UGH NO MORE JUST MOVE FASTER DAMN YOU and WHY ARE YOU STILL GETTING HIT BY THAT IT'S SO TELEGRAPHED OMG

 

Bahaha... Oh, I know that feeling all too well, too. But that's dealing with other people in general, I think. Happens to me all the time in just normal dungeons.

 

"WHY IS THAT BLM PULLING THINGS?"

"HAY BUDDY, THIS ISN'T FFXI, NINJAS DON'T TANK NO MORE."

"ADLO AND STONESKIN DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN JUST STAND IN THE AOE."

 

I'm sure you could make an entire thread about things MMO players yell at their screens while they play. Both about other players and the game itself.

[Kellach Woods]

Me, I just don't throw myself into the wild often enough. None of you likely remember but what even got me to meet other peeps was wondering how in the hell I was supposed to tank at 50 when I could scarcely hold aggro.

 

Also, I guess that this week is special because I'm all by my lonesome due to my schedule change. Nobody I know's on when I'm on. So a lot of this I don't know all that many people in the game is more from an emotional level than anything. Although it's true that I don't know that many people.

[Kage]

Before that I spent so much time watching people get hit by things that never once even touched me and it was just so goddamn frustrating and stupid and GODS WHY DO PEOPLE EVEN BOTHER WITH THIS and UGH NO MORE JUST MOVE FASTER DAMN YOU and WHY ARE YOU STILL GETTING HIT BY THAT IT'S SO TELEGRAPHED OMG

 

Bahaha... Oh, I know that feeling all too well, too. But that's dealing with other people in general, I think. Happens to me all the time in just normal dungeons.

 

"WHY IS THAT BLM PULLING THINGS?"

"HAY BUDDY, THIS ISN'T FFXI, NINJAS DON'T TANK NO MORE."

"ADLO AND STONESKIN DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN JUST STAND IN THE AOE."

 

I'm sure you could make an entire thread about things MMO players yell at their screens while they play. Both about other players and the game itself.

Me as a SCH - Ninjas? Why are you dying so much. WHY ARE YOU STANDING THERE? STOP. STOP GETTING HIT AND DYING.

Ninja - If you heal me I won't die and I do best dps.

Party - That's the dumbest shit we've ever heard of.

Me - I'm gonna stop healing you now.

 

Me as a SCH - TAAAAANK DON'T JUST STAND THERE AND HIT ONE MOB AND NOT EVEN FLASH OR OVERPOWER.

 

Me as BLM - Why do you pull a whole room and -not- use Flash or Overpower and expect that I won't Flare bomb when you do so?

 

Me as War/PLD - OMFG STOP LOOSING FUCKING ARROWS OR THROW SHIT AS SOON AS I LOB A TOMAHAWK OR SHIELD. IT'S RANGED SKILL AND MOST OF MINE ARE MELEE YOU DUMBSHITS. HIT THE THING I MARKED IN ORDER. 1! 1! WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND TO STAY ON THE MARK WHEN I MARKED?!

 

me - oh god I am a horrible person aren't i

[Gegenji]

They say that if there's a bunch of problems, it might be you. Sometimes, it really is just everyone else.

 

Of course, it can still be funny.

 

NIN: "Sorry guys, I'm a little rusty at Ninja."

Me: "... How can you be rusty at a class that just came out?"

Me: "I mean, I'm sure there's a reasonable way it CAN be, but I'm curious."

 

... He never answered. :<

[Sounsyy]

NIN: "Sorry guys, I'm a little rusty at Ninja."

 

Good ol' Shinoobis. <3

[Unnamed Mercenary]

They say that if there's a bunch of problems, it might be you. Sometimes, it really is just everyone else.

 

Of course, it can still be funny.

 

NIN: "Sorry guys, I'm a little rusty at Ninja."

Me: "... How can you be rusty at a class that just came out?"

Me: "I mean, I'm sure there's a reasonable way it CAN be, but I'm curious."

 

... He never answered. :

 

FF11? :

[Kage]

They say that if there's a bunch of problems, it might be you. Sometimes, it really is just everyone else.

 

Of course, it can still be funny.

 

NIN: "Sorry guys, I'm a little rusty at Ninja."

Me: "... How can you be rusty at a class that just came out?"

Me: "I mean, I'm sure there's a reasonable way it CAN be, but I'm curious."

 

... He never answered. :<

 

FF11? :<

He had like 1 month to do ROG and NIN. If he's level 50 it's even more ludicrous. The point is that he's saying he's rusty... at a job that is only like 1 month old.

[Gegenji]

He had like 1 month to do ROG and NIN. If he's level 50 it's even more ludicrous. The point is that he's saying he's rusty... at a job that is only like 1 month old.

That quote was while in Qarn HM, by the by.  :lol:

[Kage]

; ;

 

I feel so bad for going "ughh"

 

Just be like "sorry I'm learning to weave in skills. I'm a new 50 on NIN"

 

 

It'd be worse if NIN was the only 50 and he got the gear to be able to queue...

[Gegenji]

; ;

 

I feel so bad for going "ughh"

 

Just be like "sorry I'm learning to weave in skills. I'm a new 50 on NIN"

 

 

It'd be worse if NIN was the only 50 and he got the gear to be able to queue...

 

It's okay, take a moment to hover-opo.

 

 

(As pictured, I was so not kidding about about doing that - and it should not be as amusing to me as it is. Nyaaaaow~)

[Kellach Woods]

I usually admit my own noobishness but that might just be a preemptive defense mechanism.

 

I also don't do instances often

[ArmachiA]

For those who WANT to raid and just can't/don't want to be the manager: I've put together around 5 coil statics, maybe more. A lot of the time I'm not even in them. I had my static for a year and 4 months (Which recently broke up alas, but luckily I have a ton of raiders in my FC who go into T9 practice) and I'm pretty good at herding cats for reasons I don't know.

 

Please get a hold of me. We need dedicated people who want to go into T9 A LOT and we like to farm Coil 2 now that the majority of us think it's easy (I'm not saying it IS EASY at all, it's just more forgiving as we were all in Coil2 during lock outs) and it would be good to have a pool of people to pull from who WANT to go in there. Show enough dedication and if we clear Coil3 I'll set up all the teams we need.

 

What do I mean by dedication? You need to be a high ilvl - 105 is the cap to even get into T9. Work on getting your accuracy up and Capping your poetics every week. Other than that it's just saying "I'll go" when someone says they are doing a T9 practice run or running into Coil. (We are doing them 4-5 night a weeks, offsetted by Shiva Ex - though right now I'm playing Dragon Age >.>)

 

I do not care what job you are. I have plenty of Tank/Healers in my FC so don't worry about being a dps. Hell, don't worry about being a Tank/Healer. If this is something you're willing to put the time into - give me a PM.

 

EDIT:

I SHOULD WARN YOU.

 

We are firm, but fair. We take raiding Semi-seriously, and expect the same from people who come with us. If your rotation is wrong, we'll tell you, if your dps is so low we aren't hitting the DPS checks we'll tell you. We'll answer any questions you might have, but we won't really hesitate to tell you when you screwed up. Not to call you out, but to let you know for the next attempt.

 

We expect you to die a lot. We'll die a lot. If we're going into T6-T8 and you die a lot, don't feel bad. We expect it if your new to it. We will tell you what you did wrong but that's not because we're annoyed.

 

I say Semi-Seriously because we also are in there too have fun. We joke around, we laugh, we do stupid things to keep tension low. We won't really look at DPS if the DPS checks are being hit. So anyone who wants a SUPER SERIOUS raid team should also look elsewhere.

 

Also, you will have to use Mumble.

 

We're somewhat in the middle. If you're okay with that, then continue with your PM

[Kage]

^ if you're worried about going into the world on your lonesome but wanna raid, shoot Armi a PM.

 

 

 

I was thinking of making a linkshell tonight when I get home from work and start putting it together before I go into T9 (again I HATE YOU NAEL. GOSH. LET ME KILL YOU ALREADY). It would be a concentration of T5, Shiva Ex, Ramuh EX (Odin after Tokyo Fanfest), and SCOB. If experienced people who wish to help learn or help get clears that'd be cool.

 

For serious, could probably also get you farming T6-T7, I haven't done T8 cause HEALER.ROBE.Q.Q. yet but I've heard who's on towers is not important now.

 

It could be called RPC Prime Corps /shot

[Jana]

I can't commit to a given time at all and I don't like having to use voice chat things, but it's ncie of you to try putting things together.

[Kage]

For the LS idea I have in mind, it would just be a thing of "do we have the people? Available and willing? Sure let's do it!" so it wouldn't be a committed static. Basically people would be PUGing but with people from RPC or friends of those on RPC!

 

So there shouldn't be asshats.

 

Voice coms are -wonderful- for at least hearing the content if you aren't sure of it. Otherwise I can't think of reasons you need voice comms for T6-8, Shiva Ex. I don't believe it's necessary for Ramuh so long as the tank(s) can say when/who clears orbs. Or someone else can. You don't need to use the voice chat, but just listening is a boon to those who are running with you.

[ArmachiA]

I can't commit to a given time at all and I don't like having to use voice chat things, but it's ncie of you to try putting things together.

 

Unfortunately for any high tier raiding you need voice chat to listen. You have to, it's just how it is. The only way to clear anything is to make sure someone is calling out the moves and you're calling out what you need to. We have a few people in our groups who refuse to TALK, but they have to go in to listen and then in order to compensate they have a ton of Macros for when they need to call something out.

 

I honestly don't see how anyone does Ramuh EX without voice chat, it's so chaotic in there.

[Kage]

It's really a case of the tank(s) using a macro or just typing in chat "tank orbs" or "swap" or "party orbs" so they know who's got them. There's a bit of finesse involved if they're learning but someone else could potentially call it out in chat easily.

 

Typically you have a BRD to bait on the outside, way mark set on the land edge behind ramuh. Black mage or 1,2,3,4 or 5 set near the way mark around the half behind Ramuh with the higher number closer to Ramuh's front. Black mage almost always 1, usually just sits on the waymark unless they don't have the aoe and just move out or stay there for an aoe heal or so.

[Sounsyy]

I honestly don't see how anyone does Ramuh EX without voice chat, it's so chaotic in there.

 

Can be done, but like you said it does complicate things. I solo tank Ramuh and use a "CLEAR" macro with a few sound effects tacked on the end. While another party member will mark players 1-5 with lowest number bolting charmed players and highest number breaking chains.

 

Similarly, a group that is familiar with T5-T9 can complete without voice chat or calling out anything. But it requires each party member knows their role in each fight intimately. But you are most certainly correct in that Voice Chat makes XIV's endgame content worlds easier on everyone in the party, especially when there are new members or strangers present.

 

Talking is not necessary, but listening is most definitely helpful.

(Unless you know the content really well and people talking distracts you, which can be a thing. @_@ I can't tell you how many times in T9 I've accidentally Lunar Dynamo'd myself in that first phase just because someone started talking about something and I'm like wut? Oh frig! Souns bein' an idiot again...)

[Kage]

I haven't cleared T9 (obviously as I bitch about it constantly) but I've never really had a problem with needing any type of voice communicated messages before Heavensfall.

 

... Unless someone oops'd and place a meteor too close and golems need to be adjusted.

 

Or... when you and the bard both have meteor streams right after Lunar Dynamo and you typically are in the same area so you dance with each other holding hands. YES YES I MOVE TOWARDS THIS WALL AND YOU GO- WAIT OK YOU'RE GOING THERE I'LL GO - OMG WE - Dead. "What happened?" "Kage and BRD were holdin' hands going on a date." "We started moving in the same direction and each time one of us switched the other switch too.." "Kage! BRD! Communicate!"

[ArmachiA]

^

^ I have mumble killed myself a few times (Going to press my push-to-talk and... uh forgetting to move) lolol.

 

I set up a newish raid team for my FC and have been going in there with them when they need a sub. I keep yelling at them to communicate more, call out things. It's the main reason why they are wiping.

 

Anyway Kage, if you want help with that LS, I'm down. Like I said above, I'm pretty good at wrangling cats. I've found most of the time people are willing but they need some direction.