[SPOILERS not hidden in SPOILERS] 2.55 Before the Fall Part 2

[Kage]

I'm not entirely sure of real world politics and laws and whatnot, but this is my take on it and considering not all games have knowledgables...  Anyway, it is not smart at all politically to thrust your country into another country's matters. Not in the situation as it happens. They cannot just jump into foreign matters. As far as what is on the front, Raubahn pulled steel on fellow Syndicate which is apparently forbidden. They would be aiding a criminal suspect. The Ul'dahns are the ones dealing with the problems of their own domestics.

 

A mutiny of a foreign group from someone -under suspicions of conspiring to commit regicide- to work WITH the ruling law enforcers? Not uncommon. The Crystal Braves just worked themselves out from under the thumb of sorcerous people (echo!) who had conspired to commit regicide!

 

Raubahn is -not- in charge of the Brass Blades. They are under Lolorito's employ and coin.

 

I don't see where it doesn't apply?

When Merlwyb needs help defending Limsa, she asks the Scions and the Scions come to help.

 

When the Scions need help defending Ishgard, they ask Merlwyb and suddenly she's got better things to do.

Same thing said with the Ishgardians.

[K'nahli]

I don't see where it doesn't apply?

When Merlwyb needs help defending Limsa, she asks the Scions and the Scions come to help.

 

When the Scions need help defending Ishgard, they ask Merlwyb and suddenly she's got better things to do.

 

To be fair, primals are a threat to everyone when they appear - only difference is that the nation in which they are summoned are faced with an immediate threat. The Scions' entire MO is to fight against the primal threat in any case. It is not in any of the three nations' prerogative to aid a nation outside of the alliance.

 

 

Raubahn is -not- in charge of the Brass Blades. They are under Lolorito's employ and coin.

 

I'm assuming you mean that he genuinely funds the entire, non-Grand Company side of the city's security and not just that this particular group, like many, were paid off?

[Aduu Avagnar]

Either the Brass Blades whom are supposedly employed in SERVICE of Ul'dah, and therefore under the supreme command of Raubahn if anyone at all.

 

Or the Crystal Braves whom, despite having presumably agreed to certain privileges upon their authority to act and have a presence within the three nations, are currently in absence of their commander, Alphinaud, and have no right to act upon taking such a serious and influential figure into custody without his approval.

Brass blades are employed by Lolorito, not Ul'dah. He simply has them perform the acts of peacekeeping, albeit in a corrupt way. But they take their cues from him, not the Syndicate.

 

 

 

 

only the 1st and 3rd are there presently, and are under the influence of Teledji Adelejdi again, taking their cues from him, not Alphinaud.

[V'aleera]

I'm not talking about aiding Ishgard, I'm talking about aiding the Scions. Ishgard is incidental to the main point: Limsa was more than happy to receive the aid of the Scions, but when the time came to return the favor(s) they bailed out.

 

In any case, the dismantlement of the Scions will hopefully be a nice rude awakening for Gridania, Limsa, and Ul'dah; with no one to pull their asses out of the fire anymore they might have to actually put effort into their mutual alliances.

[Zyrusticae]

When Merlwyb needs help defending Limsa, she asks the Scions and the Scions come to help.

 

When the Scions need help defending Ishgard, they ask Merlwyb and suddenly she's got better things to do.

This does not contradict her words whatsoever.

 

Limsa first, Alliance second, everyone else last. Scions fall under the banner of "everyone else", not the Alliance - they're not even a part of any nation, and are not nearly large or powerful enough to qualify as a member nation of the alliance themselves. As such, they fall under 'last priority'.

 

Not to mention the obvious problems with butting into foreign affairs, as pointed out by others previously.

 

That being said... it's still probably a really dumb decision, considering how important they are to containing the Primal threat. One can only wonder how things go with Bismarck and the like down the line.

[K'nahli]

Either the Brass Blades whom are supposedly employed in SERVICE of Ul'dah, and therefore under the supreme command of Raubahn if anyone at all.

 

Or the Crystal Braves whom, despite having presumably agreed to certain privileges upon their authority to act and have a presence within the three nations, are currently in absence of their commander, Alphinaud, and have no right to act upon taking such a serious and influential figure into custody without his approval.

Brass blades are employed by Lolorito, not Ul'dah. He simply has them perform the acts of peacekeeping, albeit in a corrupt way. But they take their q from him, not the Syndicate.

 

only the 1st and 3rd are there presently, and are under the influence of Teledji Adelejdi again, taking their q's from him, not Alphinaud.

 

The Brass Blades part makes a bit more sense then I guess.

 

As for the Crystal Brave's part, I know what was going on, but I was speaking from the perspective that the other two leaders should have recognised that if the Crystal Braves were handling the authority side of this issue(which I am now guessing they were not really), then they were acting far beyond their jurisdiction given the person they had intended to apprehend.

[Sounsyy]

I don't see where it doesn't apply?

When Merlwyb needs help defending Limsa, she asks the Scions and the Scions come to help.

 

When the Scions need help defending Ishgard, they ask Merlwyb and suddenly she's got better things to do.

 

Yeah... defending Limsa Lominsa. Her stated first priority is to Limsa, then the Alliance, then to others. Guess who falls under others... the Scions.

 

So I'm still not seeing where her speech doesn't apply? She probably would've asked the Company of Heroes if they were still around or just went in and sent a 1000 Storm soldiers to their death if the Scions had said "lol no." She still would've got the job done to protect Limsa. But when you have an organization dedicated to Primal killing... it makes sense to call the organization dedicated to Primal killing... right? She valued the lives of a 1000 Storm soldiers over the lives of 2 Scions... I don't see where this isn't putting Limsa first?

 

 

 

I mean sure, it seems pretty underhanded. You help me but I won't help you unless it benefits me. But that's how the city-states have been. Have always been. You guys gotta remember that this alliance is only 5 years old, and only recently really started trusting each other... one year ago. Their own interests have always come first.

 

Hell, the youngest of all of the Eorzean city-states is Gridania at 500 years old, and NONE of these city-states even traded with one another until 100 years ago. These people have a 400-900 year history of warring with each other... They aren't going to just abandon that and be buddy-buddy in a 5 year period. As for Merlwyb, she's the daughter of one of the greatest Pirate Kings to have ever terrorized the Five Seas. Her first mate is Mistbeard. She's had a fleet of ships under her command since she was a little girl. I think I can forgive her for being a bit of a self-serving hard ass. Pirate Queen is in her blood after all.

[K'nahli]

I'm not talking about aiding Ishgard, I'm talking about aiding the Scions. Ishgard is incidental to the main point: Limsa was more than happy to receive the aid of the Scions, but when the time came to return the favor(s) they bailed out.

 

In any case, the dismantlement of the Scions will hopefully be a nice rude awakening for Gridania, Limsa, and Ul'dah; with no one to pull their asses out of the fire anymore they might have to actually put effort into their mutual alliances.

 

Ah, I apologise. I see what you were getting at now though I think I am with everyone else for the concept that it wasn't really a "bad" thing on her part; certainly no more than any of the other leaders - even if she had been the once to voice the priorities she they have.

[Kage]

I'm not talking about aiding Ishgard, I'm talking about aiding the Scions. Ishgard is incidental to the main point: Limsa was more than happy to receive the aid of the Scions, but when the time came to return the favor(s) they bailed out.

Exactly my point. The Ishgardians didn't help the Scions much either when they asked for help. Alphinaud even points out how the Ishgardians balked when they ask for help against the Dravanian hordes. Every leader is like this most of the time. They want what is best for themselves (country) which is putting x city-state first. The Scions have been stated to be the ones against the primal threat. Why wouldn't she go to them? Her best weapon against primals?

[Ryanti]

Somehow I have the feeling that by expansion, Ishguard will be more of an ally to the Scions than Eorzea as a whole would.

 

Perhaps Gridania will follow (Because there's no way in hell Kan-E will not be a complete angel to the main character and others), but I'm not so sure about Limsa.. especially after Merlwyb completely and utterly decided to abandon Raubahn despite the fact that uhh.. she had a gun.

 

Once again, emphasizing this, she had a gun on her.

 

I'm quite bitter over that. Eorzea seems like it takes two steps back every time it takes one step forward. The whole planet is probably laughing at them right now.

[Kage]

Raubahn committed murder. In a place that expressly forbids Syndicate members from drawing. No matter how right or wrong he was to do so... HE WAS ACTING THE CRIMINAL.

 

If she did anything to help Raubahn she'd be fucked upside a creek with no paddle.

[Aya]

Once again, emphasizing this, she had a gun on her.

And that gun could very well have started a general Eorzean war.  The Admiral knows that she will have to deal with whoever winds up in power in Ul'dah.  She cannot determine that outcome (and were she to try she would be met with immense resistance in both her city-state, and the one she were meddling in).  She made the prudent decision in staying her hand

[Sounsyy]

especially after Merlwyb completely and utterly decided to abandon Raubahn despite the fact that uhh.. she had a gun.

 

A foreign dignitary murdering a Syndicate member in cold blood at a peace banquet - having no proof of said Syndicate member's guilt and also having no jurisdiction. That sounds like a great way to go to war lol.

[Ryanti]

Still awkward that they all just sat there while everyone was murdering each other.

 

I would of at least tried to stop the violence.

[Michikyou]

Still awkward that they all just sat there while everyone was murdering each other.

 

I would of at least tried to stop the violence.

To of acted would of colored Limsa in involving themselves in Ul'Dah's political issues.

[Kage]

Still awkward that they all just sat there while everyone was murdering each other.

 

I would of at least tried to stop the violence.

Stopping who? How? Getting yourself hurt? Hurting -another ruling body member-? You, a leader of a complete city-state getting involved in another country's domestic issues? Not good as a diplomatic maneuver.

 

Could be even seen as trying to get Limsa to conquer Ul'dah maneuver.

 

Edit: I believe the case was made, yes if she had more than on Maelstrom member (same with Gridanian guard), they could have put it without more violence and destroying the victory feast halls... but they didn't. They have to let the domestics and those they call on for help do it.

[V'aleera]

Eh, what's done is done. They acted in their own self-interest and the only thing they have to show for it is the loss of the Scions, the loss of the WoL, and probably the loss of Ul'dah as a dependable political ally. And this all while the beast tribes are STILL active and presumably still summoning primals.

 

Was it a good political decision? Maybe. But it was a pretty short-sighted one.

 

Also, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that the three leaders could have pretty easily concocted a story that wholly justified their actions. Assuming Lolorito would have died, who exactly would have stood against them?

[Zyrusticae]

Still awkward that they all just sat there while everyone was murdering each other.

 

I would have at least tried to stop the violence.

To have acted would of colored Limsa in involving themselves in Ul'Dah's political issues.

FTFY.

 

Also this is a really, really fundamental mistake that I'm seeing more and more often on the internet to the point where it is physically painful every time I read it. I'm going to have to come up with some kind of macro for this or something...

[Dat Oni]

Once again, emphasizing this, she had a gun on her.

 

The best gunslingers don't have guns because they know when to use them.

 

The best gunslingers know when not to.

[allgivenover]

Still awkward that they all just sat there while everyone was murdering each other.

 

I would of at least tried to stop the violence.

 

Stopping the violence would've meant acting against Raubahn. He basically murdered someone for mockery.

 

It was clear Merlwyb was not happy walking away from that.

[Kage]

Also, I feel like people are ignoring the fact that the three leaders could have pretty easily concocted a story that wholly justified their actions. Assuming Lolorito would have died, who exactly would have stood against them?

You now have a shitton of mercs who are -not- happy that you just killed the person feeding them. Not just the entirety of the Brass Blades either. Lolorito too may have had a had in some Crystal Braves pockets as seen with Ilberd. Ilberd says he killed Nanamo, handmaiden answers to Lolorito..

[Chris Ganale]

Fairly certain that the word of even hundreds of mercs won't weigh much against that of the Three Leaders.

[K'nahli]

By doing something, Merylwyb would have risked creating tensions between her nation and the new leader(s) of Ul'dah should one have come about regardless.

 

By doing nothing she pretty much submitted control of Ul'dah to a fate whose level of corruption could pose very, serious problems - all for the hopefully-continued and symbiotic support from them as an alliance member.

 

(Note that 'something' needn't mean violence).

 

 

With said tensions, what is the worst that could happen except for a lack of cooperation from a state whom you would not trust to turn your back on anyways? Cut off part of their own economy by eliminating trade and POSSIBLE military support for whatever the future may hold? Gridania would almost certainly withdraw as a result should such a thing happen. And let's not forget that it's not just the "smallfolk" who are largely against everything that has just happened. I'd like to see the Immortal Flames not fall apart as those who are not corrupt desert the company and possibly even seek employment as soldiers for foreign dignitaries.

 

Even if that happened, despite past affiliation with Garlemald, the new leader(s) would not be so stupid as to side with them as surely that would only cause Ul'dah to tear itself apart from civil revolt.

[V'aleera]

You now have a shitton of mercs who are -not- happy that you just killed the person feeding them. Not just the entirety of the Brass Blades either. Lolorito too may have had a had in some Crystal Braves pockets as seen with Ilberd.  Ilberd says he killed Nanamo, handmaiden answers to Lolorito..

I'm willing to bet most Brass Blade's love of coin draws a pretty hard line at the fear of death. They would have been a rabble facing off against a literal roomful of living legends with -zero- pay to be had in it.

[Kage]

Keep in mind the other dignitaries? Merchants that all -fled- after seeing Raubahn kill Telediji. Raubahn is in jail because MANY witnesses saw him kill someone.