Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

[Domri Blackblade]

 

The rarity of male Miqo'te is an excellent example - though compromises have to be made in that regard simply because of how popular they are.

 

 

Just as a random note ( I guess more like FFXIV triva ) -- the lore stated that male Miqo'te were rare only because in 1.0 you couldn't be a male cat. Lady cats only! Thus, they tried to plop some reason for why you couldn't be a mancat in the lore and decided they were just super rare.

 

All of that kind of got turned on its head the moment they unleashed cat boys into the world.

 

FFXI trivia too. Male mithra existed but their only purpose was to create more babies.

[Seriphyn]

I still feel it's because of "cat fancy". We don't see any Roegadyn or Lalafell dragoon RPers. Miqo'te are always the lorebending race, the exception, the standout, whatever you want to call it.

 

Does that change anything, or should alter anyone's desire to roleplay with anyone? No.

 

But I feel it is better to admit that "I just want to play x race with x class" and own it rather than trying to bend the game world to make your character more authentic.

[Seriphyn]

Like, I'm not even kidding. If someone said "I just want to play a Miqo'te dragoon, lol", then at least for myself, I have nothing else to add to the discussion. There's no lore to discuss or deconstruct, and by that point the only way I could continue the argument was by attacking the person directly. It's pretty much "Well, fair enough, then!". You have to accept it; they RP differently than you.

 

It's a different story if we're talking about accepting interpretations of the communal game world, however.

[Marisa]

 

But I feel it is better to admit that "I just want to play x race with x class" and own it rather than trying to bend the game world to make your character more authentic.

 

I feel like a lot of folks are unreasonably stubborn on their own preconceptions about the lore, though. The whole Ala'Mhigo thing proves that. Square Enix itself did everything possible to demonstrate that Ala'Mhigo is a racially diverse state with Miqo'te, Roegadyn, Lalafells, and maybe even Elezen. Not just as token minorities either, but as significant portions of the population. Yet we still have this idea persisting among the community that Ala'Mhigans are exclusively Highlanders. So now I'm wondering, if Ishgard opens up and we find a bunch of lalafells inside, are people just going to pretend they don't exist? I don't think it's likely to happen, but I think you get my point.

 

Speaking of which, I've been roaming around Coerthas, as I tend to do, and tonight I was paying particularly close attention to the NPC dialogue. And I realized something.  

 

Why does everyone think Ishgardians are racist? 

 

I couldn't find one NPC that made any reference to race. They didn't dislike me because I was a Miqo'te. They disliked me because I wasn't a local. "Oh, another adventurer," "Do not dare question our ways, unbeliever", things like that. Never once was my race brought up. Am I missing something here? Can somebody explain to me why Ishgard is seen as racist? Because, to me, it seems like they just dislike foreigners. They don't really give two shits about what you look like. 

 

Now, Gridanians on the other hand, those are some racist bastards. Always shit-talking Duskwights and whatnot...

[Seriphyn]

I feel like a lot of folks are unreasonably stubborn on their own preconceptions about the lore, though. The whole Ala'Mhigo thing proves that. Square Enix itself did everything possible to demonstrate that Ala'Mhigo is a racially diverse state with Miqo'te, Roegadyn, Lalafells, and maybe even Elezen. Not just as token minorities either, but as significant portions of the population. Yet we still have this idea persisting among the community that Ala'Mhigans are exclusively Highlanders. So now I'm wondering, if Ishgard opens up and we find a bunch of lalafells inside, are people just going to pretend they don't exist? I don't think it's likely to happen, but I think you get my point.

 

They certainly did not do everything possible. The demographics of Little Ala Mhigo NPCs of being entirely Highlander (with an elderly Midlander here or there) with a Hellsguard couple does not tell me it is a racially diverse state, but has that usual "majority with select minority". Random smatterings of NPCs from 1.0 might say one thing, but Little Ala Mhigo being predominantly Highlander says something else entirely.

[Marisa]

 

 

They certainly did not do everything possible. The demographics of Little Ala Mhigo NPCs of being entirely Highlander (with an elderly Midlander here or there) with a Hellsguard couple does not tell me it is a racially diverse state, but has that usual "majority with select minority". Random smatterings of NPCs from 1.0 might say one thing, but Little Ala Mhigo being predominantly Highlander says something else entirely.

Isn't Little Ala Mhigo also composed almost entirely of a single extended family? Despite the name, I wouldn't really call it a microcosm of Ala Mhigan society. It's like a dozen people hiding in a cave.

[Avalt Laguz]

Damn Kale and your argument starting threads!

 

Just kidding I love you really, thanks for making my morning interesting.

[Seriphyn]

Isn't Little Ala Mhigo also composed almost entirely of a single extended family? Despite the name, I wouldn't really call it a microcosm of Ala Mhigan society. It's like a dozen people hiding in a cave.

 

I can't speak for the family bit, but I'm pretty sure it's intended to be a microcosm. I don't see why Square Enix would call it 'Little Ala Mhigo' to subsequently go ahead and grossly misrepresent its demographics. Lore and random assortment of characters from 1.0 aside, all the stuff we've seen of Ala Mhigo is it being the city of the Highlanders. Raubahn, Ilberd, Avila from Hildibrand (to which a local Ul'dahn goes "These damn Ala Mhigans"). The Highlander refugees in and around Ul'dah, and those refugees who integrated into Ul'dah to become soldiers and other professions. We do not see Ala Mhigan refugees who are not Highlander/Hyur in 2.x, at least I have not seen them. And if these exceptions have not been overtly presented to someone who has played a lot of the game, then I feel pretty confident in assuming that Ala Mhigo is predominantly Highlander/Hyur.

 

Otherwise, I'd appreciate someone posting a very unambiguous piece of lore that indicates Ala Mhigo is not primarily Highlander. A Miqo'te Ala Mhigan PC doing so is probably going to have a helluva lot of bias to it, when the Miqo'te race is notoriously composed of the most lore libertytakers. Yes, terribly fallacious I know. 

 

I'm not talking about obscure characters or dialogue, too. The demographics of Ul'dahn Highlanders and Little Ala Mhigans speaks very strongly.

[Marisa]

And maybe Ala Mhigo is predominantly Highlander. I mean, nowhere on Earth has equal racial distributions. There is always one majority race. That doesn't mean it's not diverse.  

Let's take my home state of Indiana, for example. 7 million people, 86% of them are white. 9% of Indiana residents are black. So whites are the vast majority. Yet that still means there are over 600,000 black people living in Indiana. 

 

Now, this is gonna be a lot of speculation, but hear me out. I'm gonna guess that Eorzean city states are probably similar in population to Greek city states. So Ala Mhigo, during peace time, probably had about 300,000 residents. Now lets say Lalafells in Ala Mhigo were as rare as black people in Indiana (which is probably a low estimate, I'd think). That means there would be at least 27,000 miqo'te in Ala Mhigo. A small minority of the whole, but still a shitload of people. 

 

So if we're using the idea that in-game populations are a small representation of the whole, then I think ideas like miqo'te Ishgardians become stronger, not weaker. In 1.0 there were, what, a hundred or so Ishgardian NPCs? And one of them was miqo'te, right? So if we scale that up to the full population of Ishgard, again probably a few hundred thousand, that still means hundreds or even thousands of miqo'te living in Ishgard. If the MCH guy turns out to be a real thing, that number doubles. 

 

We can't call it a microcosm, and then turn around and say that only *some* things are part of this microcosm, and others aren't.

 

edit: Hey, I'm heading off to bed, but I'm really enjoying this exchange so I'll definitely be checking back in here in the morning.

[Milly]

...

Edited July 14, 2020 by Milly

[Tiergan]

I can't speak for the family bit, but I'm pretty sure it's intended to be a microcosm. I don't see why Square Enix would call it 'Little Ala Mhigo' to subsequently go ahead and grossly misrepresent its demographics. Lore and random assortment of characters from 1.0 aside, all the stuff we've seen of Ala Mhigo is it being the city of the Highlanders. Raubahn, Ilberd, Avila from Hildibrand (to which a local Ul'dahn goes "These damn Ala Mhigans"). The Highlander refugees in and around Ul'dah, and those refugees who integrated into Ul'dah to become soldiers and other professions. We do not see Ala Mhigan refugees who are not Highlander/Hyur in 2.x, at least I have not seen them. And if these exceptions have not been overtly presented to someone who has played a lot of the game, then I feel pretty confident in assuming that Ala Mhigo is predominantly Highlander/Hyur.

 

Otherwise, I'd appreciate someone posting a very unambiguous piece of lore that indicates Ala Mhigo is not primarily Highlander. A Miqo'te Ala Mhigan PC doing so is probably going to have a helluva lot of bias to it, when the Miqo'te race is notoriously composed of the most lore libertytakers. Yes, terribly fallacious I know. 

 

I'm not talking about obscure characters or dialogue, too. The demographics of Ul'dahn Highlanders and Little Ala Mhigans speaks very strongly.

 

This is a strawman argument.

 

No one in this thread has ever said that Ala Mhigo is not predominantly Highlander (well, unless that's what you were trying to claim, Ryoko. In that case - apologies.) only that it's not entirely Highlander and that there is a small population of other races, which was exemplified in the few cut-scenes we saw in 1.0 of the Ala Mhigan Resistance. In 1.0 that was literally one of the main chunks of story where we actually saw Ala Mhigans in the game, so when Sounsyy and myself rolled up miqo'te Ala Mhigan women - it just wasn't really a weird sticking point in the lore. A lot of Ala Mhigan players back then were Highlander, but they were also roes, lalas, elezen, etc because that's what the game presented to us at the time.

 

So yeah, it bothers me just a little for people to appear and claim all the Ala Mhigan based RP I did as Lurial in 1.0 is irrelevant and invalid just because they don't think 1.0 counts.

 

Even if we DO decide all of the roegadyn, lalafell, elezen, and midlanders from 1.0 were just there because SE decided to break it's own lore for whatever reason: Minfillia, Wilfred, the Hellfire Phoenix miqo'te champion from 1.0 who shows up as your client in the level 50 2.0 Blacksmith quest, and 3 Hellsguard Roegadyn hanging out in Little Ala Mhigo (along with that old midlander you mentioned) show that non-highlander Ala Mhigans do exist even in 2.0

 

 

Why so quick to conveniently shove the roegadyn couple under the rug as though they don't count? I guess maybe those three roegadyn and the roegadyn in the 1.0 MSQ cutscenes are all exceptions too? Or perhaps just added for flavor? Maybe they don't count because they're not major NPCs? Where do we draw the line on what 'counts' and what doesn't when they're actually in the game itself? When is something not obscure enough to 'count' as lore? People can argue they were tossed in just to make things appear diverse -- but the fact of the matter is, that's an assumption based upon zero evidence. No one can actually know whether or not SE decided to say "fuck the lore, we need some character model diversity" where as these characters are actually in the game as Ala Mhigans and some of them are written directly into quest lines or referenced in items in 2.0. You can try to split hairs and say 'maybe these roe are just visiting adventurers' - but they're clearly dressed in similar colors/attire as the rest of the camp and the husband/wife couple is actually getting extorted by the highlander in a way that suggests they live there and they aren't just visiting adventurers who can pick up and leave.

 

At the end of the day, I get it. Despite all of this, you're going to continue to believe Ala Mhigans can only be highlanders. And even if it irks me a little because I liked the RP I did in 1.0 - that's totally okay. We're allowed to disagree with each other and the server's big enough for us to find our own circle of friends to have rich narrative experiences with. I enjoy lore debates as long as they're respectful, which large portions of this thread have been and I'm appreciative of that. There's plenty of aspects of the lore I don't really agree with everyone in the RPC about. I've been able to get along with/RP with most of them just fine.

 

What irritates me more is that your assertions are often wrapped tightly around your notorious dislike not for 'miqo'te' as a race, but miqo'te players themselves - which you have consistently made clear on these forums and in game many times over. You even exemplify it here in your post writing off the majority of miqo'te players as being composed of 'lore libertytakers'.

 

If you're going to debate the lore - then debate the actual lore without those petty remarks. It's okay if you think a lot of miqo'te RP poorly or in a way you dislike. It's even okay if you think I'm breaking the lore, because like I said - two people can disagree on the lore without being called a butthead. But at least have this discussion without taking the time to paint a large brush over miqo'te players as though the vast majority of them are animu garbage 'lore libertytakers' that don't deeply care for the setting they're playing in. It's one thing to say I specifically, or other folks specifically in this thread are RPing in a way you feel is inconsistent with the lore -- it's another to just label the vast majority of a player group that way as though the large bulk of us are the same.

[Sin]

I suck at quoting stuff, but this in response to Milly's statement about the lack of racism in Eorzea to the best of their knowledge.

 

In Gridania, outside of the Lancer's guild there's a trio of Elezen having a conversation that contradicts your reality of the in-game world. A wood wailer is chewing out another gentleman for some transgression. His partner states "Damnable Duskwights!" As the duskwight apologizes, and assures the two Wailers it won't occur again.

 

That's just one example off the top of my head though, there's quite a few other examples out there about race-relations, and racism. Let's see, the interracial gay couple of the Wanderer's Palace unlock quest that are looked down on more for being interracial than being homosexual. (An interesting look at the realm's culture.)

[Tiergan]

I suck at quoting stuff, but this in response to Milly's statement about the lack of racism in Eorzea to the best of their knowledge.

 

In Gridania, outside of the Lancer's guild there's a trio of Elezen having a conversation that contradicts your reality of the in-game world. A wood wailer is chewing out another gentleman for some transgression. His partner states "Damnable Duskwights!" As the duskwight apologizes, and assures the two Wailers it won't occur again.

 

That's just one example off the top of my head though, there's quite a few other examples out there about race-relations, and racism. Let's see, the interracial gay couple of the Wanderer's Palace unlock quest that are looked down on more for being interracial than being homosexual. (An interesting look at the realm's culture.)

 

Duskwight DEFINITELY face a lot of prejudice in Gridania. As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a lot of them actually left for Ishgard because it was actually way better for them there than in Gridania. There's also a story in the game where a Duskwight Lancer steals something with two Wildwood Lancers. Eventually something happens that makes the Duskwight feel compelled to confess what they did. His two Wildwood partners agreed that they would confess as well - but when the time came, they betrayed him and let him take the fall for everything. After that, the lancers all remarked something to the effect of "Of course, it was the Duskwight. We should have known." (It might actually even be the NPCs you're talking about Sin.)

 

Moon Keepers face some problems as well - mainly because there's a lot of Moon Keeper poachers in the Shroud that give Gridanian Moon Keepers a hard time convincing other Gridanians that they're not like the poachers in the forest.

[Kellach Woods]

...and that's part of what makes the place so special and intriguing. So it's a real shame that some role-players end up making some pretty awkward justifications as to why their character is the exception to the rule and is well loved in Ishgard despite not being one of the two main native races.

 

From my understanding, if you pledge your life to Halone, if you live your life entirely through Ishgardian customs, you will be accepted in Ishgard REGARDLESS of race. You may not end up in positions of power due to prejudices but we've not really seen an example of that (unlike, y'know, Gridanian racism which is essentially 90% of the storylines involving Gridania).

 

As others've pointed out in this thread, it's never really about race with Ishgard, but unbelievers. If you believe the Ishgard dogma about Halone, chances are you'll be welcomed with open arms, though viewed with suspicion at first.

[TheLastCandle]

Just to break my silence on the topic and chime in, I don't see an issue with it. Many players choose their character's race based upon aesthetics first and foremost, so it stands to reason. Could it be seen as a bit of a copout? Perhaps, but it is what it is: simple player preference. Even if we have several claiming to be Ishgardian dragoons who happen to be of "X non-standard race," they're still a minority in the grand scheme of things and as long as that's acknowledged via RP with that character, then I don't personally think the "flavor" of the nationality is in any danger of being diluted.

 

tl;dr - It's how you present yourself that counts, more so than race.

 

That being said, if any of you do decide to roll up an Ishgardian elezen in your hype for Heavensward, I will welcome you with ears wide opaaaahn-uh.

[Milly]

...

Edited July 14, 2020 by Milly

[Kage]

I suck at quoting stuff, but this in response to Milly's statement about the lack of racism in Eorzea to the best of their knowledge.

 

In Gridania, outside of the Lancer's guild there's a trio of Elezen having a conversation that contradicts your reality of the in-game world. A wood wailer is chewing out another gentleman for some transgression. His partner states "Damnable Duskwights!" As the duskwight apologizes, and assures the two Wailers it won't occur again.

 

That's just one example off the top of my head though, there's quite a few other examples out there about race-relations, and racism. Let's see, the interracial gay couple of the Wanderer's Palace unlock quest that are looked down on more for being interracial than being homosexual. (An interesting look at the realm's culture.)

 

Duskwight DEFINITELY face a lot of prejudice in Gridania.  As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a lot of them actually left for Ishgard because it was actually way better for them there than in Gridania.  There's also a story in the game where a Duskwight Lancer steals something with two Wildwood Lancers.  Eventually something happens that makes the Duskwight feel compelled to confess what they did.  His two Wildwood partners agreed that they would confess as well - but when the time came, they betrayed him and let him take the fall for everything.  After that, the lancers all remarked something to the effect of "Of course, it was the Duskwight. We should have known."  (It might actually even be the NPCs you're talking about Sin.)

 

Moon Keepers face some problems as well - mainly because there's a lot of Moon Keeper poachers in the Shroud that give Gridanian Moon Keepers a hard time convincing other Gridanians that they're not like the poachers in the forest.

 

Good point! So we do see... inter-clan racism but not... inter-race racism? I'm probably not making sense any more. Haha. I'm not surprised I missed that since I wouldn't say I 'hate' Gridania but I really don't enjoy it there. Likewise, Mi'qote don't interest me so paid little attention to their interactions etc. I've probably missed a fair bit of stuff because of that.

Hyur-Elezen racial relations are strained to say the least according to the Vegas FanFest lore panel. They'd been at war constantly.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I suck at quoting stuff, but this in response to Milly's statement about the lack of racism in Eorzea to the best of their knowledge.

 

In Gridania, outside of the Lancer's guild there's a trio of Elezen having a conversation that contradicts your reality of the in-game world. A wood wailer is chewing out another gentleman for some transgression. His partner states "Damnable Duskwights!" As the duskwight apologizes, and assures the two Wailers it won't occur again.

 

That's just one example off the top of my head though, there's quite a few other examples out there about race-relations, and racism. Let's see, the interracial gay couple of the Wanderer's Palace unlock quest that are looked down on more for being interracial than being homosexual. (An interesting look at the realm's culture.)

 

Duskwight DEFINITELY face a lot of prejudice in Gridania.  As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, a lot of them actually left for Ishgard because it was actually way better for them there than in Gridania.  There's also a story in the game where a Duskwight Lancer steals something with two Wildwood Lancers.  Eventually something happens that makes the Duskwight feel compelled to confess what they did.  His two Wildwood partners agreed that they would confess as well - but when the time came, they betrayed him and let him take the fall for everything.  After that, the lancers all remarked something to the effect of "Of course, it was the Duskwight. We should have known."  (It might actually even be the NPCs you're talking about Sin.)

 

Moon Keepers face some problems as well - mainly because there's a lot of Moon Keeper poachers in the Shroud that give Gridanian Moon Keepers a hard time convincing other Gridanians that they're not like the poachers in the forest.

 

Good point! So we do see... inter-clan racism but not... inter-race racism? I'm probably not making sense any more. Haha. I'm not surprised I missed that since I wouldn't say I 'hate' Gridania but I really don't enjoy it there. Likewise, Mi'qote don't interest me so paid little attention to their interactions etc. I've probably missed a fair bit of stuff because of that.

 

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

[TheLastCandle]

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

 

He also expresses prejudice towards the main character as an "outsider," regardless of race.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

 

He also expresses prejudice towards the main character as an "outsider," regardless of race.

 

Well, yes. Gridania was (and likely still partly is) xenophobic as well. One can be racist and xenophobic at the same time. The way that certain elezen NPC treated the miqo'te NPC is one of probably more examples. He doesn't like outsider adventurers in "his" city, but he hates even more that there are miqo'te poachers abouts.

[TheLastCandle]

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

 

He also expresses prejudice towards the main character as an "outsider," regardless of race.

 

Well, yes. Gridania was (and likely still partly is) xenophobic as well. One can be racist and xenophobic at the same time. The way that certain elezen NPC treated the miqo'te NPC is one of probably more examples. He doesn't like outsider adventurers in "his" city, but he hates even more that there are miqo'te poachers abouts.

 

I wasn't disagreeing.

[Tiergan]

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

 

He also expresses prejudice towards the main character as an "outsider," regardless of race.

 

Well, yes. Gridania was (and likely still partly is) xenophobic as well. One can be racist and xenophobic at the same time. The way that certain elezen NPC treated the miqo'te NPC is one of probably more examples. He doesn't like outsider adventurers in "his" city, but he hates even more that there are miqo'te poachers abouts.

 

I think Yves was just saying "Yeah, that guy is pretty prejudiced. He even calls you 'outsider' along WITH being racist."

[Unnamed Mercenary]

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

 

He also expresses prejudice towards the main character as an "outsider," regardless of race.

 

Well, yes. Gridania was (and likely still partly is) xenophobic as well. One can be racist and xenophobic at the same time. The way that certain elezen NPC treated the miqo'te NPC is one of probably more examples. He doesn't like outsider adventurers in "his" city, but he hates even more that there are miqo'te poachers abouts.

 

I wasn't disagreeing.

 

If you haven't, the Archer questline in Gridania has racism. Xenophobic Wildwood Elezen who hates on Miqo'te (I think she was a Keeper because I don't remember seeing a tribal prefix).

 

He also expresses prejudice towards the main character as an "outsider," regardless of race.

 

Well, yes. Gridania was (and likely still partly is) xenophobic as well. One can be racist and xenophobic at the same time. The way that certain elezen NPC treated the miqo'te NPC is one of probably more examples. He doesn't like outsider adventurers in "his" city, but he hates even more that there are miqo'te poachers abouts.

 

I think Yves was just saying "Yeah, that guy is pretty prejudiced. He even calls you 'outsider' along WITH being racist."

 

This is a perfect example of not being able to get tone from text. I completely misinterpreted it as disagreement. /sorry

[Marisa]

So we've basically established that Gridania should be the state known for hateful racism, not Ishgard.

[Gegenji]

So we've basically established that Gridania should be the state known for hateful racism, not Ishgard.

 

There's nothing keeping multiple states from being racist. Heck, they could ALL be racist!