discussion Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead

[Gegenji]

I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trained :thumbsup:

Well, that circles back to something someone brought up earlier - the Soul Crystal helps you learn the abilities and whatnot in most cases. I remember someone likening them to arcane cliff notes that help spin you up to speed faster than someone who didn't have one. So, does that knowledge just... disappear from your mind once you don't have it anymore? I know mechanically you go back to your base class and whatnot, but what about from an IC perspective?

 

Do those memories and skill sets remain? Do they get sort of fuzzy and difficult to recall like dreams after waking up? Or are they just gone entirely, leaving you feeling like you KNEW how to do it but it's forever on the tip of the proverbial tongue?

[Valence]

 

Yeah I thought anyone who killed a Dragon was a Dragoon. The 30 are just like the cool kids club. 

 

I used Paladins before, but maybe Monetarists are a better example? There are only 6 rich people on the Syndicate, however you can be an incredibly rich noble in Uldah, with lots of power.

 

You can be an incredibly skilled dragoon with the soulstone who has killed a Dragon... but maybe you're not cool enough to be on the cool kids club. It's all politics really.

 

Two rather different things actually.

 

A simple dragoon is called that way when someone kills a single dragon. It's a title, or a way to describe those who make the deed. Those dragoons can be any class, mage, swordsman, anything.

 

A Knight Dragoon is the military elite branch of Ishgard knights. Has probably killed a dragon at some point, but maybe not.

 

Lots of dragoon knights (or just mercs or adventurers) in Ishgard. But 10-30 Knight Dragoons only though.

[Val]

I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trained :thumbsup:

Well, that circles back to something someone brought up earlier - the Soul Crystal helps you learn the abilities and whatnot in most cases. I remember someone likening them to arcane cliff notes that help spin you up to speed faster than someone who didn't have one. So, does that knowledge just... disappear from your mind once you don't have it anymore? I know mechanically you go back to your base class and whatnot, but what about from an IC perspective?

 

Do those memories and skill sets remain? Do they get sort of fuzzy and difficult to recall like dreams after waking up? Or are they just gone entirely, leaving you feeling like you KNEW how to do it but it's forever on the tip of the proverbial tongue?

 

See, this is the problem I have with SE. Ever since... FFX, maybe? They've had this stupid idea/thing where they have to immerse all of their game mechanics in in-game lore. I appreciate the effort, but some mechanics really just don't need it as I would hope/think people are intelligent enough to realize it is a mechanic.

 

..That being said, I would assume it's the latter of what you offered, based solely on the mechanic alone. The abilities a character is given are insanely powerful and require a great deal of skill and experience to pull off. The soulstone gives you that. I can imagine losing it would cause someone to lose the knowledge, but through experience you may be able to learn to do it without.

 

The problem is that some people would no doubt try to say they can learn everything without soulstones, although I guess we already have some that RP knowing everything with soulstones.

[Teadrinker]

I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trained :thumbsup:

Well, that circles back to something someone brought up earlier - the Soul Crystal helps you learn the abilities and whatnot in most cases. I remember someone likening them to arcane cliff notes that help spin you up to speed faster than someone who didn't have one. So, does that knowledge just... disappear from your mind once you don't have it anymore? I know mechanically you go back to your base class and whatnot, but what about from an IC perspective?

 

Do those memories and skill sets remain? Do they get sort of fuzzy and difficult to recall like dreams after waking up? Or are they just gone entirely, leaving you feeling like you KNEW how to do it but it's forever on the tip of the proverbial tongue?

 

See, this is the problem I have with SE. Ever since... FFX, maybe? They've had this stupid idea/thing where they have to immerse all of their game mechanics in in-game lore. I appreciate the effort, but some mechanics really just don't need it as I would hope/think people are intelligent enough to realize it is a mechanic.

 

..That being said, I would assume it's the latter of what you offered, based solely on the mechanic alone. The abilities a character is given are insanely powerful and require a great deal of skill and experience to pull off. The soulstone gives you that. I can imagine losing it would cause someone to lose the knowledge, but through experience you may be able to learn to do it without.

 

The problem is that some people would no doubt try to say they can learn everything without soulstones, although I guess we already have some that RP knowing everything with soulstones.

 

Massive lore comes with MMO territory, especially those with a progressing storyline and multiple xpacs etc.

 

You can get away with not having as much in a standalone console RPG.

[Valence]

I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.

The lore book says that Nunh are leaders in Seeker tribes as a standard in direct contradiction to the original lore post.

 

I don't remember anything like that? They don't say outright they are leaders... Unless there is a scan I missed...

[Val]

 

Massive lore comes with MMO territory, especially those with a progressing storyline and multiple xpacs etc.

 

You can get away with not having as much in a standalone console RPG.

 

Nah. You don't need lore explaining what equates to obvious game mechanics and chat systems. Linkpearls, for example, are just custom chat channels, yet they felt the need to go very in-depth with explaining them through in game for some reason. It's not just MMOs they do it with. It's every single game they've released in.. forever.

[Val]

I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.

The lore book says that Nunh are leaders in Seeker tribes as a standard in direct contradiction to the original lore post.

 

I don't remember anything like that? They don't say outright they are leaders... Unless there is a scan I missed...

 

They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

[Valence]

Just don't be surprised if people call you out on it. ICly of course.

 

Will you?

 

I personally will because that's how my character would react to someone claiming to be a special snowflake.

 

But that's probably where I'll shift to OOC discussion because it's never really sane to treat a divergence of RP opinions ICly like that, with one side claiming things while the other says "yeah, yeah, cuckoo crazy". It's highly unhealthy.

 

Generally, when both sides disagree with how to treat that kind of issue, then better to part ways happily, with no hard feelings and a mutual respect.

 

Don't get me wrong, I have no stakes in that. I always try to be the most neutral and lore abiding possible. I also happen to have a good RP friend that is playing a dragoon, and the nightmare it will cause is also impacting me.

[Valence]

 

They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

 

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

 

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

 

But maybe I'm wrong.

[Val]

 

They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

 

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

 

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

 

But maybe I'm wrong.

 

One screen definitely said leading them to greatness, and another mentioned them being leaders of the tribe. It was weird. I tried to find it on my phone for exact wording but I couldn't, and my work blocks tumblr via firewall (not that I'd remotely care to get on it at work >_> definitely not a safe place).

 

If someone else doesn't post it by the time I get home, I'll see if I can find it!

[ExAtomos]

 

They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

 

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

 

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

 

But maybe I'm wrong.

 

One screen definitely said leading them to greatness, and another mentioned them being leaders of the tribe. It was weird. I tried to find it on my phone for exact wording but I couldn't, and my work blocks tumblr via firewall (not that I'd remotely care to get on it at work >_> definitely not a safe place).

 

If someone else doesn't post it by the time I get home, I'll see if I can find it!

 

Here is the Seeker page if this is what you were looking for.

 

 

On topic... I am also VERY surprised that they didn't couch things in vague terms like "a small number of..." or "few" and yes, I do feel for those who try very hard to abide by lore and play a Dragoon. This is rather pulling the rug out from under them.

[Val]

 

They do. I saw the scan as well and raised a brow. I positioned Val's father as the leader of his sect/tribe, since Wolf = alpha male = nunh seems to fit well together, but I acknowledged that most tribes had breeding males and leaders separate. I assumed it was an error, and they did state that there were some errors.

 

I don't have the scan to check it again, but I seem to remember it was stated rather approximately along those lines, that they have to lead their tribe on the way to greatness or something.

 

Which doesn't necessarily mean that they are tribe chiefs, but merely leaders. Which also tends to comfort me in saying that they have a very central social status to the tribe, and not just on breeding.

 

But maybe I'm wrong.

 

One screen definitely said leading them to greatness, and another mentioned them being leaders of the tribe. It was weird. I tried to find it on my phone for exact wording but I couldn't, and my work blocks tumblr via firewall (not that I'd remotely care to get on it at work >_> definitely not a safe place).

 

If someone else doesn't post it by the time I get home, I'll see if I can find it!

 

Here is the Seeker page if this is what you were looking for.

 

 

On topic... I am also VERY surprised that they didn't couch things in vague terms like "a small number of..." or "few" and yes, I do feel for those who try very hard to abide by lore and play a Dragoon. This is rather pulling the rug out from under them.

 

Thank you! I think there's another part that someone else capped that talks about Nunhs being leaders, though.

[ExAtomos]

 

Here is the Seeker page if this is what you were looking for.

 

 

On topic... I am also VERY surprised that they didn't couch things in vague terms like "a small number of..." or "few" and yes, I do feel for those who try very hard to abide by lore and play a Dragoon. This is rather pulling the rug out from under them.

 

Thank you! I think there's another part that someone else capped that talks about Nunhs being leaders, though.

 

It's mentioned in the bottom right square. Here is Kage's post to the OF about the discrepancy.

 

PAGE: 087

HEADING: Seekers of the Sun

Section: Culture

 

Is this a possible error? In the Miqo'te Naming conventions post, Nunh status does not equate leadership in a tribe and it is a rare occurrence. The culture section states "with each tribe centered around a strong breeding male (nunh) whose duty it is to form a harem and lead his people to glory and prosperity."

 

Is this perhaps erroneous a statement?

[Val]

It's mentioned in the bottom right square. Here is Kage's post to the OF about the discrepancy.

 

PAGE: 087

HEADING: Seekers of the Sun

Section: Culture

 

Is this a possible error? In the Miqo'te Naming conventions post, Nunh status does not equate leadership in a tribe and it is a rare occurrence. The culture section states "with each tribe centered around a strong breeding male (nunh) whose duty it is to form a harem and lead his people to glory and prosperity."

 

Is this perhaps erroneous a statement?

 

 

Oh, right! Then yeah, that may be what I was talking about. It's pretty ambiguous, but at the same time it could just as easily not be. I've seen multiple places state that the lore book was a bit rushed, but the could have at least chosen their wording a bit more carefully?

[PhantasticPanda]

Going back on topic, one must consider The Order of the Knights Dragoon as a military branch of the Ishgardian. Special forces sent to do missions, often suicidal, with specific objectives relating to combating dragons. It even says the mortality is higher than any other fighting force of Ishgard.

 

The lore book uses the words that I should emphasis on. "Compromised of *normally* 30 dragoons" and "only 10 in active service."

 

Combine both these facts together, with the common workings of a military order, is that while there aren't many in *active* service, it may all be possible that there are many Dragoons on reserve to fill for the dead and the injured. I also doubt Trainee Dragoons count as active service members when they're prone to breaking their legs during jump training as stated in a levequest.

 

With the Dragonsong War over, there's not a big reason to keep as many active Dragoons around with many being on reserve for states of emergencies. (I doubt only 30 dragoons fought during Horde attacks when they're supposed to be the first line of defense).

 

No one has to recon being a dragoon. But a curveball is still thrown that many dragoons have been placed into a state of inactivity. But again, they are still a dragoon. Get a desk job, "retire" to adventuring or like (hell I forgot his name) the dragoon trainer that stepped down as the Azure dragoon to be a regular temple knight again. Though as others have said, there's no shame in a bit of lore bending. For plots, maybe there's a reason for a dragoon to be in service. Maybe the 10 are proccupied with other duties and more are taken from the reserves. Up to you!

[Altitis Acquired]

I'm not gonna take the lorebook and use it as a ruleset. If people wanna RP a Dragoon or White Mage or Summoner etc, then they can do that.

 

It's nice to see some concrete lore, but I don't mind people moving outside the box.

 

And I'm gonna flip off everyone who DO use the lorebook as a strict ruleset, trying to make others follow it to the letter and harassing those who don’t.

[Virella]

So were does it state she's training anyone but with the WoL? Give examples please. Don't take things for granted, please.

 

Also, they sell anything at the vendors. Just because some vendor sells it, I really couldn't take that as granted. If they are duplicates? Great, amazing, but that doesn't make them the real deal, or something Ishgard is allowing to be sold. For all we know they might be fuming about it.

 

I could slap on a piece of authentic Samurai gear from the ye old days. Does that make me a Samurai irl suddenly? No. Just owning the armour does not magically grand you the skillset.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions without ANY back up. Give me that, and we can continue. I hate people just wizarding lore out of their asses. Don't assume things, give me PROOF.

 

Sure, these things may happen, and I'm not going to say that is impossible, but don't make this a 100% lore proof thing while you have zero arguments for it beyond "Hey, one Dragoon is hiding due to being tainted with dragon blood and fears for her life, and vendors sell the gear."

 

Because god, if we're going to use vendors to justify lore, I can tell you it is not for all classes. Monk AF is forbidden in lore to be worn by non-FoR. Its a meta mechanic, not a "lets make this lore" mechanic.

 

So once more. Where is my proof? I'm genuinely interested. Stop assuming things, please.

 

Honestly, this is just such a weird idea about it. I know you're trying to help people by conjuring this out of nowhere, but after some thinking, I think people are just best to roleplay a retired Dragoon, one booted from the training, or just didn't make the cut at the end of the day.

 

I get this whole vibe of "my wandering lost sensei saw me as their only hope and trained me". Okay Anakin Skywalker. Sure people can do it if they really want, but I still don't see any proof of Dragoons doing it, beyond that to the WoL special snowflake exception.

[ZOMGodzilla]

One would think that there being ten Dragoons isn't the Holy Knight's "new protocol". Ten is the directory listing at the Dragoon Office building, with a bunch of names scratched off. Those empty rooms can be refilled. Given that one levequest's text about Dragoon trainees, it's absolutely possible the spots can refilled.

 

Now when it comes to the issue of there still only being 21 "unnamed spots" left open, I don't see any issue whatsoever in players continuing to play Dragoons. The spots can easily be treated as ambiguously as IC time. When it comes to those organizations that don't actually have any sort of effect on the activity, behavior, protocol, etc of other players (even those within the same organization), I don't think numbers even should be treated with absolutes. Does a player portraying one of the 21 unnamed Dragoons really affect anything?

 

This issue, for the Dragoons, could easily be solved by shifting their backstory such that they only recently passed Little Dragoon School and became a fully-fledged Dragoon, taking one of the 21 unnamed spots.

 

A Dragoon in one of these spots doesn't even affect another Dragoon in another spot. What does it affect? Who does it affect? Is there really going to be an instance in which a Dragoon meets 20 other Dragoons and then comes across yet another? The narrative here isn't defined, and so any interactions between two Dragoons is easily warped during other interactions with unrelated parties.

 

Dragoon 1 and 2 interacting with player A has no effect on Dragoon 3 and 4 interacting with player B. They could meet, but even in such a case their personal narrative simply gets shifted. Even if twenty one Dragoons were tied into a single character's narrative, the multiple degrees of separation are so flimsy and unimportant meeting several more Dragoons wouldn't affect jack squat.

 

This being said, so long as the Dragoons are only recently titled through their backstory, I have no problem whatsoever with interacting with Dragoons. I would honestly be surprised if any of my characters met -personally met- 22 different Dragoons. Even if they did, interactions with some would undoubtedly be of the sort they don't remember or care about them, and their "spot" is now just as nameless as before, free to be filled by another Dragoon.

[Aaron]

I'm really more concerned about how much weight this discussion actually even holds in the long run. In several months will people even care about there being 10 DRG or whatever as much as now or is this really just a controversial debate just for the sake of it over the immediate span of time?

[Valence]

Well, it's playing something very special, numbers or not, to begin with. Even more so with that new lore, you can't really cut it.

 

I think there is actually a lot of interesting wiggle room and very fascinating stuff to be had around trainees actually. All the people that are selected, trained, go through impossible trials and arduous, humongous tasks in the thin hope of one day maybe becoming a full fledged dragoon. 

 

I think there is a lot of interesting drama and RP shenanigans to be had not only with those trainees (think Estinien and what happens in his story, in Tales From Heavensward), but also with all those fallen dragoons, all the people that failed to pass that incredibly hard selection (you bet it's harsh, not only because the lorebook says it, but because an average of 30 active DRG?). All the hope, and broken dreams. All the social status shifting, glory and fame just at the grasp of the hand, only to fail at the end.

 

All of what can also be had around your average dragon killers in the convictory, not Knight Dragoons, but that can be noticed. Elevated to heights in the ishgardian society. All the vertical societal struggle in Ishgard is rather fascinating, and everything that actually happens around the Order of the Knight Dragoons who accept everyone from any birth, commoner or noble, is what I find the most interesting, not necessarily playing a full fledged, super edgy elite soldier.

 

In short yes, I think there is still a lot to do around all of those other people, the not quite Knight Dragoons, but that still hold similar abilities, their jump, etc. tl;dr: play DRG trainees, people aspiring to become one and very good with a lance, fallen almost full fledged DRGs and what you have. Those are nameless. They fix most of those issues.

[Verad]

I'm really more concerned about how much weight this discussion actually even holds in the long run. In several months will people even care about there being 10 DRG or whatever as much as now or is this really just a controversial debate just for the sake of it over the immediate span of time?

 

You're probably right that it's receiving a lot of undue attention at this moment because it's new information. Over time, it will fade off until new players start asking questions about what is and isn't acceptable.

 

But in those threads, it will become clear that Dragoon is the new White Mage.

[Valence]

Most of the 2.0 jobs are or have been on a slippery slope, it's nothing new. 

 

WhM, BLM, SCH and SMN especially. We only always talk about WhM, WhM, WhM as the taboo because it's the most obvious. Even Bard (not a simple minstrel), or Monk, is rather dangerous in my opinion. I would have categorized DRG with those two latter ones, but obviously now it has joined the first ones (all of the casters). I'm rather concerned for all the people playing actual monks by the way, regarding Ala-Migho slowly approaching and all that. 

 

But the thing is, again, how far you are willing to go, how far you are willing to stretch things, for that lore doesn't exactly make any job TOTALLY out of reach.

 

A lot of people often just fail to understand how immensely powerful a lot of those jobs are, in terms of lore, because we are blinded by their balanced gameplay. Take a black mage for example, that can potentially turn into a god of destruction. It's not just a THM with bigger spells, it's a THM with a virtually infinite amount of aether at their disposal, never running out. Same for a WhM. Take a Bard, and the dreadful power of their songs over legions of people, and what a single one can achieve. 

 

Are Dragoons or else, that different from those? I am not even sure.

[LystAP]

Most of the 2.0 jobs are or have been on a slippery slope, it's nothing new. 

 

WhM, BLM, SCH and SMN especially. We only always talk about WhM, WhM, WhM as the taboo because it's the most obvious. Even Bard (not a simple minstrel), or Monk, is rather dangerous in my opinion. I would have categorized DRG with those two latter ones, but obviously now it has joined the first ones (all of the casters). I'm rather concerned for all the people playing actual monks by the way, regarding Ala-Migho slowly approaching and all that. 

 

But the thing is, again, how far you are willing to go, how far you are willing to stretch things, for that lore doesn't exactly make any job TOTALLY out of reach.

 

A lot of people often just fail to understand how immensely powerful a lot of those jobs are, in terms of lore, because we are blinded by their balanced gameplay. Take a black mage for example, that can potentially turn into a god of destruction. It's not just a THM with bigger spells, it's a THM with a virtually infinite amount of aether at their disposal, never running out. Same for a WhM. Take a Bard, and the dreadful power of their songs over legions of people, and what a single one can achieve. 

 

Are Dragoons or else, that different from those? I am not even sure.

 

Well, for monks. They have the Shadow Sect, which essentially remained intact after the mainstream sect was wiped out. You fight tons of nameless mooks which are part of it in the MNK storyline. 

 

SCH might be a little easier nowadays, especially with friendly tonberries. And NIN could always be one of the countless Imperial Shadows that got abandoned by Garlemeld, when their master died.

[Hyrist]

Virella,

 

You're trying to assert an absolute negative by claiming there must be an absolute positive.

 

As for the proof, it's inferred, never directed. Just like there is no point in the game that there are no Dragoons outside the order. Only that the order itself is limited. Your impression of the lore is just as sketchy as anyone elses - especially with SE's propensity of rewriting it at their leisure. 

 

Some examples:

 

"Ascians are Immortal" -

We've killed two, NPCs 'Killed' One. Summoner WoL can kill Black Masked ones at will, provided the are no nearby dead bodies to inhabit.

 

 

"Tempering is forever!" -

We've seen two people who's tempering has been dropped.

 

"Warrior of Light is a special Snowflake that can never be replicated!" -

To date, we have seen seven crystals of light NOT in possession or having been possessed by the Warrior of Light. We have seen NINE active NPCs with the Echo, (the Five Heros from the First, Krile, Minfilia, Ysale, and the Sahagin Shaman. We have had three additional Echo-users who where twelve-swords that were offed in the background back in the assault on the Scions after Titan. And five straight up alternate reality derivatives of the Warrior of Light. Even the so called "Blade of Light" which is identified as a blade wrought of Aether, has been recreated in a much lesser version by the Pajali and can be stabilized and distributed to adventurers who've survived sufficiently exploring the Palace of the Dead.

 

 

With this many exceptions to their own Lore, just on the surface level, having a character stumble upon a Job Stone, which has been repeatedly shown to be common enough to be excavated, consumed, distributed to the most fatal military station in Ishgard's entire Army (and still have enough to give out to maintain their ~30 men listing for nearly a thousand years) and encountered on corpses. Not to mention used in the creation of Anima weapons really does not seem outlandish by any measure.

 

You ask for evidence that there are people besides the listed NPCs that are trained in the arts of the Dragoon. You need look no further than Rowena's wares. She has, on no fewer than three occasions, peddled specifically towards those trained in the ancient arts - and to great success (Augmented Artifact Armor, AF2, AF3.) as indicated by the continual growth of Reverants Toll and Idyllshire.

 

You want to see NPCs that are retired from the field, yet still retain their skill and are free enough from Ishgard's jurisdiction to train others. I've provided two possible, and with that let me add another -

Orland who displayed having enough skill left to attempt a Dragonsong Dive completely solo.

 

 

And all of this is ignoring the potential for adventurers to discern their own methods of replicating, reverse engineering or passing along their skills. We already have irrevocable proof that there is a category of adventures we flatly don't see in the NPC field, the so called "Elite Adventures." We are aware that they have the echo, and can stand with the Warrior of Light in several dangerous exhibitions, including hunting primals/eikons as powerful as the Warring Triad in their prime, thanks to simulations of Allag Technology. To claim that these same warriors are not capable of ascertaining the skills of "Jobs", through whatever method, including those pushed as rare to non-existent - or even that their numbers are as few as 23 - is going above and beyond concern for legitimacy in lore - and into the realm that I can only speculate is fueled by insecurity and a desire to legitimize a slice-of life game-play and evade high adventure.

 

And I don't entirely blame the lore-monger community for doing this, given that the MSQ and plot around it is disjointedly written, often contradictory, and designed with the writing philosophy of singe player RPG. It is just mildly bothersome to me, that they tend to take matters so literally and not see the grey areas the Lore purposefully leaves, and not to mention the writer's revisionist nature (and occasionally terrible localization) and not be more relaxed in communities such as these. This is why on this, more than most other games, I tell people to respect the Spheres of Canon rather than take the lore as gospel - and beyond that, to not take things very seriously.

 

Again, makes sense that Ishgardian Dragoons are so few in number. Adventure Class Dragoons, however, are likely have out-populated them for a while now - and avoid Ishgard for a multitude of obvious reasons. You can argue to what extent a 'Adventurer Class ' is skilled, and it is likely to vary wildly (some can't even jump, maybe one's fairy is irreparably weak - And then we have to compare to NPCs, Note that even the WoL couldn't replicate the frequency in which Estinian could Dragonfire Dive.) That's an intelligent conversation to have. And one that would be highly productive to the growth of the community.

 

But saying that Adventures don't at the very least attempt to replicate these skills and have been successful on a case to case basis just does not seem to be an intelligent deliberation of existing lore and gameplay items to me. It's very contrarian to the core theme of adventurers - which is assisting others and exploring ancient secrets and relics for fun and profit - to outright rule them completely out of a core gameplay design. just because the game's lore says that certain orders are very selective of who they let join them is more than just restrictive, it's unwelcoming.

[Virella]

But saying that Adventures don't at the very least attempt to replicate these skills and have been successful on a case to case basis just does not seem to be an intelligent deliberation of existing lore and gameplay items to me. It's very contrarian to the core theme of adventurers - which is assisting others and exploring ancient secrets and relics for fun and profit - to outright rule them completely out of a core gameplay design. just because the game's lore says that certain orders are very selective of who they let join them.

Okay, recreating a fighting style as Dragoon is absurd. First of all, Ishgard always shut out outsiders, especially after the Garleans came in. It serves NO purpose outside Ishgard's borders. Dragoon is a very specific fightingstyle, for a very specific reason. Dragons never irritated non-Ishgardians, so why the fuck would anyone want to try to recreate that fightingstyle, if first of all, Ishgardians didn't really interact much with outsiders to begin with. It serves NO purpose outside Ishgard.

 

Why is so hard for people like yourself that some things you just can't have if you don't create your character to have the fitting background for it? Is it really that complicated? It is "I want the flashy skills but I cba to RP the character fitting for it, deal with it."

 

And you know what? That's fine. Just don't try to make it canon lore and try to shove it trough people's throats. I'm arguing lore here, not roleplay. I don't give a fuck what you roleplay, as long you don't come roleplay with me. It simply reeks of "muh Otherdian Au ra Dragoon BS" this whole discussion. These Ishgardian bros will find a less wonky, idiotic way to make their characters be fine again. The retired Dragoon, the Exiled Dragoon, I dropped out Dragoon school Dragoon. It's not perfect, but better then this Anakin Skywalker nonsense loopholes.

 

You're not providing evidence, you're simply pointing out game mechanics. Once more, show me an example of an adventurer being trained to be a skilled Dragoon, by a Dragoon, beyond the Warrior of Light. I'm still waiting for this.

 

But at the end of the day, yeah, this discussion between you and I clearly shows the levels of how invested people are in lore. I take it stricter then most, and bend my characters to fit the lore instead of the other way around. Hell, I retconned Virella being an Astrologian, and made her an Astrologer purely when I found out it wasn't possible. People were okay with it. You on the other like to just throw your hands up, bend lore to your liking and do whatever at the end of the day. And that is fine. Its not like we will ever RP to begin with.

 

But if they end up changing the job being open to adventurers and the like? Great, there, we got Dragoons for everyone and their mother again. Just don't pull out shitty loopholes out of your ass, and just wait till SE gives you the greenlight for it.