Roleplaying in Public, but not..in public?

[Kieron Lohengrin]

well this blew up quickly

 

 

 

 

This whole back-and-forth boils down to: why aren't more people open to walk-ups, and why are some criminals tryhard consequence-evaders?

 

- because they're bad or inexperienced roleplayers

 

- because you can't impose punishments like capture and permadeath

 

- because you don't pay their sub

 

These will always be the pitfalls of a non-pvp mmo. Only a few classic Neverwinter Nights servers offer that sweet hardcore experience of choice & longterm consequence RP.

 

Tbh you'd save yourself loads of time and headache by just researching PCs or linkshells/FCs you like in advance, and reaching out to their players for meetups rather than hoping for bites in cities. Ul'dah is basically Goldshire these days

[LiadansWhisper]

You, after all, are the one imposing.

 

If you're standing in the middle of the goddamned street in front of the Quicksand, RPing in /say or /em, how the hell is someone walking up and reacting to your RP "imposing" upon you?

[Unnamed Mercenary]

You, after all, are the one imposing.

 

If you're standing in the middle of the goddamned street in front of the Quicksand, RPing in /say or /em, how the hell is someone walking up and reacting to your RP "imposing" upon you?

 

Much like real life, it's usually apparent when a person or group of people are open to outside contact. Like, it's easy to join in with people you know. Or if you're aware of the context. Or have something to add. Just like it's also usually pretty obvious when a people are having a conversation that doesn't seem like the type of thing to disrupt.

 

Going back to the food-related ideas, you wouldn't butt into a couple's dinner night. But joining in with people sitting at the bar would likely get a lot further. It would be pretty imposing to former, but not really in the latter. But RP isn't exactly like the real world. People can miss a message. And they can choose to ignore it. Sometimes OOC communication is the only way to get noticed, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Does that mean people should plot their crimes in public? No. Just like they shouldn't/wouldn't do so IRL. (Or I'd hope not at least!) But in a setting where you can't make anyone do anything, there's ultimately some form of agreement to interact that has to happen. And that can't be enforced in a diverse community with people of varying options and preferences who haven't agreed to some static list of terms and conventions. Perhaps in a closed RP community, DMed environment, or official RP server. ...but FFXIV is none of those things on average. And never on a whole.

[LiadansWhisper]

Going back to the food-related ideas' date=' you wouldn't butt into a couple's dinner night. But joining in with people sitting at the bar would likely get a lot further.[/quote']

 

So is standing in the middle of the street a private dinner? Or is it a bar? Or...maybe it's just standing in the middle of the fucking street, where other people can see and hear you? And react?

 

Like, jesus...I've tried, but I literally can't comprehend the idea that people RPing in an obviously public, busy area should be ignored unless we beg permission to be able to acknowledge them. That's crazy. That's just..no. I just can't. I really can't.

[Caspar]

You, after all, are the one imposing.

 

If you're standing in the middle of the goddamned street in front of the Quicksand, RPing in /say or /em, how the hell is someone walking up and reacting to your RP "imposing" upon you?

To take the opposite approach to Merc, the street isn't actually like real life. 

Maybe it's just my background from forum RP speaking, but I don't see our characters as people existing within a simulated space, but separate stories with occasional collaboration. The open space used to RP in public doesn't necessarily need to actually be the same area, at the same time. Since this is a fictional narrative, and you have control over your character's actions, nothing that occurs around your character *needs* to occur. You can't shut out sounds IRL without deliberately trying to deafen yourself, but you can avoid RP, or ignore it, the same way dialogue is filtered. You personally might not like that because it contradicts your writing style, but there's nothing inherently essential to responding to it. You decided to do so, regardless of whether you perceive it to be the realistic response, or perceive your character to have a sense of agency of some sort. Public RP is just multiple separate narratives bumping against each other because you happen to be using the same prop, i.e. the street. You don't actually have to, in any way, interact with others in the area. You just feel that's the most natural approach, and so do I. There's nothing inherently wrong with using the same space for separate RP because their fiction doesn't need to interact with yours.

 

Now I mean, you can find it super distracting people are doing RP that doesn't mesh with yours in the same space, sure. Or you can find it upsetting to not be able to interact with people who are playing around you. There's not really a ton that can be done about that, I think. As long as people have separate goals for RP that don't intersect with yours, their RP is going to remain separate from yours whether you can see it or not. You have no ability, nor right even if you did, to force your way into it.

 

I realized later after writing this post that this is all pointless, though, as the argument was never "you cannot play with other RPers in a public space without /tell," and more "just be courteous, or be able to read the mood."

[Edda]

Never forget.

[QalliFlower]

Going back to the food-related ideas, you wouldn't butt into a couple's dinner night. But joining in with people sitting at the bar would likely get a lot further.

 

So is standing in the middle of the street a private dinner?  Or is it a bar?  Or...maybe it's just standing in the middle of the fucking street, where other people can see and hear you?  And react?

 

Like, jesus...I've tried, but I literally can't comprehend the idea that people RPing in an obviously public, busy area should be ignored unless we beg permission to be able to acknowledge them.  That's crazy.  That's just..no.  I just can't.  I really can't.

 

I've seen people be more absurd over less.  And while I definitely have my views on what they should do and expect, that has nothing at all to do with what they can do and expect of me.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

Allow me to present something for you all to think about.

 

Why did each of you respond to this forum thread? Is it because the OP posted a message in a public space, one which was directed specifically to you, inviting you personally, individually, to respond? Or did the OP post a message in a public space and you chose to respond to it even though it wasn't meant precisely for you?

 

Now consider: If, following your response, she reacted with offense toward you, stating plainly that you weren't meant to reply to it and she didn't want your opinion and you should butt out... would you consider that an amicable and acceptable reaction by her? Or would you be inclined to respond, "Why did you write the message here, where inherently anyone can respond to it, if you only wanted a response from a specific subset of people and would be offended by a reply from anyone else?"

 

Food for thought.

[Caspar]

Allow me to present something for you all to think about.

 

Why did each of you respond to this forum thread? Is it because the OP posted a message in a public space, one which was directed specifically to you, inviting you personally, individually, to respond? Or did the OP post a message in a public space and you chose to respond to it even though it wasn't meant precisely for you?

 

Now consider: If, following your response, she reacted with offense toward you, stating plainly that you weren't meant to reply to it and she didn't want your opinion and you should butt out... would you consider that an amicable and acceptable reaction by her? Or would you be inclined to respond, "Why did you write the message here, where inherently anyone can respond to it, if you only wanted a response from a specific subset of people and would be offended by a reply from anyone else?"

 

Food for thought.

This is based on a false equivalency. A forum post has a totally different purpose than semi-public RP.

[Silmanos]

Comparing this post to things being done in say and emote isn't actually an equal comparison at all though. They posted on a forum, in a sub forum specifically designed for a /discussion/. That is it's sole purpose, case closed. To say that the say channel and emotes are for the sole purpose of open free public rp is completely wrong. The only ones that can make that distinction is Square Enix, and last I knew they had made no such distinction. Using your line of thought anything that happens in say and emotes is 100% IC and canon thus all those Pvers talking oocly in say is also happening within view of your character. Does your character hear them? No, of course they don't. Which means not everything that happens in those channels is there for the sole purpose of you to rp off of.

 

There is literally nothing wrong with people being polite and asking first, or if you don't at least make sure people can see your emote and acknowledge you as you try to jump in. This gives them the chance to politely tell you that it is a closed scene, or a chance for their characters to react to yours. No one here at all is advocating for people to just blatantly be rude and abusive towards someone for trying to walk up, we're just simply stating they have the right to tell you no politely.

[Verad]

Allow me to present something for you all to think about.

 

Why did each of you respond to this forum thread? Is it because the OP posted a message in a public space, one which was directed specifically to you, inviting you personally, individually, to respond? Or did the OP post a message in a public space and you chose to respond to it even though it wasn't meant precisely for you?

 

Now consider: If, following your response, she reacted with offense toward you, stating plainly that you weren't meant to reply to it and she didn't want your opinion and you should butt out... would you consider that an amicable and acceptable reaction by her? Or would you be inclined to respond, "Why did you write the message here, where inherently anyone can respond to it, if you only wanted a response from a specific subset of people and would be offended by a reply from anyone else?"

 

Food for thought.

 

It is not, and that would be an appropriate reaction for the poster on this forum.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

This is based on a false equivalency. A forum post has a totally different purpose than semi-public RP.

 

Does it? Please explain how a forum post here is at all different from an RP post made on the street in the middle of Ul'dah. How is it acceptable to randomly respond, without personal invitation to do so, to one of these, but not the other?

[Kieron Lohengrin]

semi-public

 

"Semi-public" isn't a thing; either you're in /say and /emote or you're not. Others have already touched on the edgelord/attention-whoring aspect of it so I won't harp on about that too much anymore

 

Does it? Please explain how a forum post here is at all different from an RP post made on the street in the middle of Ul'dah. How is it acceptable to randomly respond' date=' without personal invitation to do so, to one of these, but not the other?[/quote']

 

i like the cut of your jib

[Caspar]

semi-public

 

"Semi-public" isn't a thing; either you're in /say and /emote or you're not. Others have already touched on the edgelord/attention-whoring aspect of it so I won't harp on about that too much anymore

What I refer to here is using a public space for private RP. Like Zhavi mentioned, you could be in a totally different context or different area other than the space presented in game. It'd be nice if every area in the game corresponds evenly with equivalent areas used in RP, but RPers tend to want to go places there isn't really any reason to visit in the game proper. So there may be times where you're in a public space, and a person responding out of the blue lacks the necessary context to enter the scene properly. Or you're in a full party and /p is used solely for OOC. I've been to tons of events like this, and a few other events where /p was used but generally folks didn't want to give up /em, yet they were still effectively private. In these cases, I'd call it "semi-private," because it's not as if you can say "no, don't watch" to other folks when you're writing in /say, but it's still not an open event for various reasons.

 

The example I used earlier is the huge mob events, where a stranger doing walkup doesn't know there's an enormous riot going on. They lack the context to understand the scene, so asking in /tell would allow them to rapidly assess what's going on without having access to earlier dialogue and enter if they're welcome to do so; but this still doesn't mean they're free to enter if they please. Nobody can force the group to RP with them.

[V'aleera]

Now consider: If, following your response, she reacted with offense toward you, stating plainly that you weren't meant to reply to it and she didn't want your opinion and you should butt out...

 

I'd think her reaction would be a little churlish and go about my day.

 

While other people are happy to harp on the false equivalency you have drawn, I personally am more concerned about the strawman you have erected: you are presuming that in every instance of someone attempting to join a visible (not public) RP that A) the joiner does so in a manner that is polite and appropriate to the scene they are joining and B) that the roleplayers immediately respond with aggression.

 

I find this somewhat amusing given that, anecdotally, the opposite is far more common: some boorish derp tries to shoehorn themselves into other peoples' business, and those people have to take a couple minutes to ICly or OOCly politely facilitate said boor's intrusion before A) he gets the hint OOC and leaves or B) they get tired of his shtick and politely excuse themselves to go continue their prior RP elsewhere.

[Kieron Lohengrin]

Or you're in a full party and /p is used solely for OOC

 

That's what linkshells are for

 

folks didn't want to give up /em

 

Then their publicly written actions are publicly fair game. Even if it's something as inane as a passing stranger responding with "X thinks this mugging is dumb"

 

yet they were still effectively private

 

Not really, no. Not unless you're locked away in an FC house or instance somewhere

 

huge mob events' date=' where a stranger doing walkup doesn't know there's an enormous riot going on[/quote']

 

They can read publicly displayed text and have their toon react accordingly. If you don't like how their character reacts then tough shit, you don't pay their sub

 

They lack the context to understand the scene' date=' so asking in /tell would allow them to rapidly assess what's going on without having access to earlier dialogue and enter if they're welcome to do so[/quote']

 

This sounds less and less like a mob riot and more like that insufferable couple next door havin' a domestic again

 

this still doesn't mean they're free to enter if they please. Nobody can force the group to RP with them

 

"This still doesn't mean the group is free to riot as they please. Nobody can force the public to stop reacting in-character to their publicly broadcasted drama."

 

See, it works both ways

[Lydia Lightfoot]

I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one, because the point in a debate in which people become focused on which fallacy terms they can quote is the point at which the debate loses sight of the actual topic and shifts to bantering about fallacies, and that's frankly not productive for anything.

 

Here's what I'll leave with:

 

Having played in a lot - a lot - of various MMOs, and having seen more of them than not become (or already exist as) bastions of RP only among tight-knit clique groups who largely do not interact with each other and almost certainly do not engage in RP in the open world... I feel it's better that we celebrate the existence of open RP and that we try to all remember we're on the same team here. There are boors, for certain. Let's not change our behavior from being a welcoming and participation-encouraged community on account of some bad apples who won't handle that situation gracefully. Personally, I like to roleplay in an environment where my fellow roleplayers and I err on the side of acceptance and camaraderie rather than supporting exclusion and seclusion.

 

If I can read your RP, then it's an invitation for me to join in if I wish. We're all on the same team. If your situation is a proxy or out-of-time sort of thing, that's fine. Just tell me so after I post, and at worst, I'll have wasted my time posting a post and that's not a big deal to me. I'd rather waste time 50% of the time and have the experience of getting RP with some new people the other half, than feel like the only people I'm allowed to RP with without begging them to include me first are my existing friends. That seems terribly insular and that's not how I RP. If it's how you RP, then please do enjoy yourself, and we'll simply have a difference in how we think of the hobby.

[Caspar]

See, it works both ways

None of what you said is strictly wrong, sure, but generally I err on the side of being polite because it saves me trouble. It's not unreasonable to want to walk up to someone who's using /em and /say, and if you don't know that it's a private event, it's understandable you would try to. I think it's really just not unreasonable to ask people to enter a scene beforehand, or watch for a bit and decide for yourself whether it's something you think you'd be able to enter seamlessly. You can of course butt in, and people will react accordingly, but why struggle like that? The server is huge. There's plenty of folks to RP with. 

I've seen plenty of rude people in game who respond aggressively when someone asks politely to be left alone during an FC event or something like that, as well as people who respond impolitely to walk up. There's no "right" way to RP. But asking in advance is a good way to get information and understand what's going on ahead of time, and frankly, it's just the more diplomatic way to do things. RP is a cooperative exercise, and I want to work with others, not against them.

[V'aleera]

stuff

 

You don't really seem to understand the crux of the issue, allow me to lay it out for you:

 

You have a right to react to any visible RP.

 

You do not have a right to have your reaction acknowledged.

[Erah'sae]

A lot of people don't use the search info or RP tag very effectively. Case in point: me. I never use the RP tag because I dislike that the kerning of the icon butts it up right against the start of my character's name, instead of giving a few pixels' space. It's totally idiotic of me that it bothers me, but yet it does, and so I don't use it out of some futile silent protest.

 

 

I am so glad I'm not the only one that doesn't have the tag on most of the time because the tag itself makes me twitch.  (That and I forget to turn it on)

 

To answer previous stuff: 

 

Forum posts often have these little tags like "(open)" as we see in several threads on this forum.  For people really wanting it to be closed except for a group, there's often a disclaimer stating as such or a "[closed]" in the topic.  You can give your thread context and control the venue in which it is shown.  

 

Things in world, well, RP interaction is why we're on a RP server, isn't it?  There are so many other private avenues available for private RP (party / whisper / fc chant / linkshell / etc) but only one in game for public RP.  In my opinion the responsibility is on the speaker to limit their venue appropriately to where they wish it to be responded to.  

 

If someone is going to talking / acting ICly within earshot of others they are putting their /say and /emotes into the public space and should expect others in the same public space to respond accordingly.  

 

This is how organic roleplay works.  

This is how you create a living, breathing world for our stories to interact in.

 

If a private/public conflict arises, the solution should be to politely inform that this wasn't meant to be public RP, and then to take the conversation to one of the many readily available private channels.  It is a far simpler thing and far less restrictive of a thing to do that rather then to restrict all others from interaction in a public venue.

[Kieron Lohengrin]

See, it works both ways

None of what you said is strictly wrong, sure, but generally I err on the side of being polite because it saves me trouble. It's not unreasonable to want to walk up to someone who's using /em and /say, and if you don't know that it's a private event, it's understandable you would try to. I think it's really just not unreasonable to ask people to enter a scene beforehand, or watch for a bit and decide for yourself whether it's something you think you'd be able to enter seamlessly. You can of course butt in, and people will react accordingly, but why struggle like that? The server is huge. There's plenty of folks to RP with. 

I've seen plenty of rude people in game who respond aggressively when someone asks politely to be left alone during an FC event or something like that, as well as people who respond impolitely to walk up. There's no "right" way to RP. But asking in advance is a good way to get information and understand what's going on ahead of time, and frankly, it's just the more diplomatic way to do things. RP is a cooperative exercise, and I want to work with others, not against them.

 

I can respect that. Tbh I view most RP friction these days as a matchmaking issue, rather than a solvable git gud issue. Yoshi-P can wall off bads from endgame with the Royal Menagerie, but you can't cure shitty, attention-whoring RP cliques. GW2 still suffers that to this day with all the Divinity's Reach noble house / minister bullshit. For your sanity's sake and to save time you really have to just roll your eyes and move on.

 

I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this one, because the point in a debate in which people become focused on which fallacy terms they can quote is the point at which the debate loses sight of the actual topic and shifts to bantering about fallacies, and that's frankly not productive for anything.

 

Here's what I'll leave with:

 

Having played in a lot - a lot - of various MMOs, and having seen more of them than not become (or already exist as) bastions of RP only among tight-knit clique groups who largely do not interact with each other and almost certainly do not engage in RP in the open world... I feel it's better that we celebrate the existence of open RP and that we try to all remember we're on the same team here. There are boors, for certain. Let's not change our behavior from being a welcoming and participation-encouraged community on account of some bad apples who won't handle that situation gracefully. Personally, I like to roleplay in an environment where my fellow roleplayers and I err on the side of acceptance and camaraderie rather than supporting exclusion and seclusion.

 

If I can read your RP, then it's an invitation for me to join in if I wish. We're all on the same team. If your situation is a proxy or out-of-time sort of thing, that's fine. Just tell me so after I post, and at worst, I'll have wasted my time posting a post and that's not a big deal to me. I'd rather waste time 50% of the time and have the experience of getting RP with some new people the other half, than feel like the only people I'm allowed to RP with without begging them to include me first are my existing friends. That seems terribly insular and that's not how I RP. If it's how you RP, then please do enjoy yourself, and we'll simply have a difference in how we think of the hobby.

 

To me it's akin to the people who want to be selective about FFXIV lore. Yes, there can only be a few padjal-chosen White Mages and one Azure Dragoon. However, goofball shit like Hildibrand exists and is canon. Lalafell exist and aren't creepy cabbage patch kids, they're grown-ass men and women. People who shrilly insist that "this and ONLY this development is worth acknowledging about this very public display I'm making in this online JRPG" are bad at improv and bad at RP.

[Koro Dotharl]

I have social anxiety and have been mistreated heavily in the past so of course I am more inclined to send an ooc tell asking permission than others. Some people have difficulties or special needs that makes it harder for them to do things that are second nature to others, it's kinda unfair to get angry at customs that try to be respectful to you? Damned if you do damned if you don't.

[Aoi Fukiku]

I'm of the belief that there is a fine line of when you should send a tell, when your character gathering information and using it is metagaming, and when it is okay to just walk up.

 

I've been in an instance where a player was afk in the local area. Never emoted, never spoke up but was keen on trying to use the conversation they were never apart of against my character. That to me doesn't fly, especially if you try to work it saying mammets were there recording everything as a means to bypass it.

 

If I'm roleplaying in public I am fine with people just walking up and joining in (if not in an event of course). My only concern becomes when said walk up player tries to force their roleplay, ie: law enforcement. Now again, there is a fine line to this. If a criminal is, well, being a criminal in public then I would see that as an invitation to step in. However, if there is no obvious emoted illegal action being emoted or spoken of and you try to force an arrest then obviously you will be met with resistance.

 

At the end of the day it is really just a personal preference. Both sides of this topic have their points but there are a multitude of different avenues/instances that would cause said walk up to feel rejected and ignored. I personally am just the type to emote my character there as well as ask to see if the roleplay is open for walk ups. Another person may not be. This is just how it is. The online World is huge and there will always be differing opinions and styles of roleplay here.

[QalliFlower]

Allow me to present something for you all to think about.

 

Why did each of you respond to this forum thread? Is it because the OP posted a message in a public space, one which was directed specifically to you, inviting you personally, individually, to respond? Or did the OP post a message in a public space and you chose to respond to it even though it wasn't meant precisely for you?

 

Now consider: If, following your response, she reacted with offense toward you, stating plainly that you weren't meant to reply to it and she didn't want your opinion and you should butt out... would you consider that an amicable and acceptable reaction by her? Or would you be inclined to respond, "Why did you write the message here, where inherently anyone can respond to it, if you only wanted a response from a specific subset of people and would be offended by a reply from anyone else?"

 

Food for thought.

 

Something akin to this scenario has happened to me more than once.  Heck, it's happened in open forum RP, which is a more direct comparison.

 

Someone posted a thread where their character from Faction A accidentally wound up in Faction B territory, where the setting was a PVP-heavy game.  They didn't specify what they were looking for OOCly, so I posted that my character (a member of Faction B) was showing up to fight.

 

Turned out the OP was looking for a star-crossed friendship.  I pointed out that they really should have disclosed that from the start (which was right) and then insisted on continuing my RP posts (which was, at minimum, unhelpful and didn't make me any new friends).

 

People can and will flake.  People can and will duck IC responsiblity.  People can and will be hypocritical.  I think these are important things to accept, and I don't think that trying to fix others' flaws is a constructive use of my time.

 

You can, of course, hold them to account in the form of not interacting with them/inviting them to your FC.  That's about it.

[Kieron Lohengrin]

On reflection, ERPers and Darknest had this etiquette figured out ages ago: if you're acting out a scene where you don't want outside intervention and commentary possibly throwing a wrench in your plans? Then keep that shit 100% in private channels. Emote actions, conversations, all of it - type it out where only you and yours are subjected to it.

 

So all the conflict drama / criminal storyliners and "private event" FCs have to do is adhere to the same behavioral discipline and standards that ERPers regularly do. Problem solved. Meanwhile the rest of us who welcome walkups and making new connections can continue on our merry way. Everyone's happy!