Fantasia usage ICly?

[Seriphyn]

Was it already mentioned that someone from the lore team explicitly stated Fantasia is a metaitem and not canonical?

[Kage]

Was it already mentioned that someone from the lore team explicitly stated Fantasia is a metaitem and not canonical?

"explicitly" stated, as in a paraphrased account of someone on tumblr talking to some people in the team out on a lunch/dinner meeting.

 

Yep.

[Aife]

Was it already mentioned that someone from the lore team explicitly stated Fantasia is a metaitem and not canonical?

"explicitly" stated, as in a paraphrased account of someone on tumblr talking to some people in the team out on a lunch/dinner meeting.

 

Yep.

-Basically- an informal interview posted on tumblr with someone from the translation team is now an excuse for people to actively refuse to rp with people who use fantasia ic. Our fc gained three new members after they left another fc because of such rudeness. Until I see an official statement sanctioned by SE from someone who actually works for the lore development/story telling part of FFXIV saying fantasia doesn't exist in Eorzea I'm not going to have an issue with role players using fantasia IC.

[Saefinn]

The alternate method I prefer to Fantasia is glamours. Because we see reference to them within lore...plus avoids a certain number of issues.

 

Saefinn got really drunk once, then woke up as a Lalafell and couldn't remember what happened...He was glamoured for a practical joke. So I got to play as a Lala for a few weeks.

 

But if a person uses Fantasia, I won't make an issue of it.

[Virella]

Glamours are the way to go instead In the AST questline you see a heap of people glamoured, to the point you have to pick the right person by speech and not by looks; to avoid further spoilers I will leave it with that!

[Kellach Woods]

Honestly I used to be more in the whatever camp but it's one of those things I feel that you have to earn through fantastic RP.

 

I'm far more willing to accept it if the story's good - if it's just "i got turned into a catboi to get turnt" then yeah no.

 

It also depends on what you do with it - some people will use Fantasia "IC" to justify a change (character was glamoured and undoes the glamour, etc.) and others will explicitly refer to the potion.

 

One of the things that the potion mentions is not so much how expensive it is but how rare it is. Chances are there is no one in Eorzea that can actually make these potions.

 

If the story's good, makes sense and doesn't outright contradict lore, I'm down.

[Delilah Scythewood]

My opinion? 

 

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

 

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

[Dravus]

My opinion? 

 

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

 

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

 

Some role-players enjoy consistency and plausibility. Could a decent reason be given as to why a particular character changed from a hyur to a miqo'te? Maybe - but in my experience that usually isn't the case.

 

Perhaps it's an unpopular opinion but I've found the role-players who do change their character's race IC to be rather unreliable. As harsh as it may sound I consider them to be rather indecisive and at risk of completely abandoning an established plot in favour of doing whatever they please on a whim. Ironically quite a few end up changing back a few days/weeks later when the novelty wears off.

 

Are they free to do whatever they like? Sure! Though it should be understandable why some of us are reluctant to indulge on their behalf.

[Dante Abigor]

My opinion? 

 

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

 

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

 

Using your example, sure the end result is the same. But if that method of cooking affected you in a negative way, like say....slamming your face on the table and using your cheeks as a makeshift plate or skillet, you wouldnt be too happy with that method of cooking, even if it did bring you to the same result.

 

Its essentially the same with Rp. By doing something that blatantly requires everyone else around you to just be like "Oh ok no probs" or "Thas cool" or anything other than freaking the Hell out after you effectively shattered their world with your complete altering of their understanding of it, then its not completely mind blowing to be met with some kind of resistance. The entire issue of lore aside, if you applied the exact same thing in real life the results would probably be the same.

 

Your best friend is now a dog. How!? Wtf happened!? "Oh, I was captured by aliens."

 

See how that might make someones head explode?

 

If someone wanted a character change that badly but couldnt be bothered to like think of a reasonable way or at least believable story for how said change happened then its not a BAD thing, but its not really fair to expect people who knew your character before or an established way of how you RP to want to be around it any longer either.

 

Also this is not aimed at anyone in a negative light, just wanted to respond to the post.

[Manari]

Being able to completely and totally change your appearance, race, and gender instantly is completely immersion breaking, even in a high fantasy setting such as this. I don't really care what people do with their characters, but sometimes one person's whim to be the fancy new race will completely ruin the RP they have previously built up with all those characters they interact with if they insist on trying to somehow play the same character after the change.

[Tumensuns]

My opinion? 

 

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

 

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

 

I think it'd be more like ordering a hamburger and being given a salad instead, but told it's a hamburger and need to address it as hamburger from now on, or I'm being a meany poopy-face.

[Shoshopu]

My opinion? 

 

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

 

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

 

I think it'd be more like ordering a hamburger and being given a salad instead, but told it's a hamburger and need to address it as hamburger from now on, or I'm being a meany poopy-face.

 

How's that analogy work? You don't "order" other peoples' characters to be a certain thing, in advance. If you're just seeing them for the first time, why does it matter to you (or your character) what their past is, is the point Lili is trying to make, I think.

 

I believe Lili's analogy is assuming you've never met the character before. Is yours assuming you know the character already? Like they're already in your RP circle and they've changed? Because that's certainly not going to be true of every character yours will meet who's had a fantasia affect their life (if in fact they meet one at all!)

 

I guess I'm arguing semantics now but confusing analogies are a pet peeve of mine in discussions like this :B

[Lilia Lia]

Confusing analogies are the worst.  It's like you're juggling oranges and all of a sudden, your mom shows up and it's your first day of school.

[Tumensuns]

My opinion? 

 

Shouldn't matter if the person is glamoured or has taken a fantasia. The end result is the same: appearances get changed. If the end result gets accepted why should the means matter?

 

Thats like me getting mad at restaurant for giving me the exact same burger that looks and tastes the same but is prepared with a different cooking method each time. Still tastes good. End result is the same. Num.

 

I think it'd be more like ordering a hamburger and being given a salad instead, but told it's a hamburger and need to address it as hamburger from now on, or I'm being a meany poopy-face.

 

How's that analogy work? You don't "order" other peoples' characters to be a certain thing, in advance. If you're just seeing them for the first time, why does it matter to you (or your character) what their past is, is the point Lili is trying to make, I think.

 

I believe Lili's analogy is assuming you've never met the character before. Is yours assuming you know the character already? Like they're already in your RP circle and they've changed? Because that's certainly not going to be true of every character yours will meet who's had a fantasia affect their life (if in fact they meet one at all!)

 

I guess I'm arguing semantics now but confusing analogies are a pet peeve of mine in discussions like this :B

 

I think you're over thinking it. 

 

I'm used to seeing hamburger as he is, a beef patty between bread, but now hamburger is a bunch of green stuff, and telling me to call him hamburger because reasons.

[Shoshopu]

I think you're over thinking it. 

 

I'm used to seeing hamburger as he is, a beef patty between bread, but now hamburger is a bunch of green stuff, and telling me to call him hamburger because reasons.

 

Then I repeat again, since your analogy (which you insisted was more true to actuality than the other one you originally quoted) does indeed assume you've met the character before, and now they're suddenly different: That's not going to be true of every Fantasia'd character you meet, unless you've literally met every Fantasia'd character ever. Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

[Dravus]

I'm a little confused as to what, exactly, is actually being discussed at this point. It shouldn't be terribly difficult for people to accept that when someone chooses to embrace a particularly controversial storytelling device then not everybody is going to smile and accept it readily.

 

Nobody is demanding that people stop doing it. They're simply explaining why they, themselves, don't really have any interest in going along with it.

 

I don't think there's much to be accomplished from reading too deeply into analogies especially when different people can walk away with completely different interpretations.

[Tumensuns]

I think you're over thinking it. 

 

I'm used to seeing hamburger as he is, a beef patty between bread, but now hamburger is a bunch of green stuff, and telling me to call him hamburger because reasons.

 

Then I repeat again, since your analogy (which you insisted was more true to actuality than the other one you originally quoted) does indeed assume you've met the character before, and now they're suddenly different: That's not going to be true of every Fantasia'd character you meet, unless you've literally met every Fantasia'd character ever. Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

 

That'd be assuming I know said hamburger, before they suddenly were a salad.

 

Now, if a salad walked up to me and said "hey at one point I was a hamburger", I'm probably going to think they're crazy.

 

Which ICly, I have done in the past to people who do this, and then they get mad at me OOCly because I'm not forcing my character to accept the absurd notion that this bowl of green lettuce and red tomatoes was once a juicy meat patty between two toasty buns.

[Lilia Lia]

Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

 

I should mention that a lot of players treat their IC Fantasia as a significant part of their character's history.  You don't find out about it right away but as you get to know them they come out with it, or a friend of theirs casually says something like "that was back when he was a Lalafell" and all of a sudden you have to respond to this.  The reason it's immersion breaking is because your character is being asked to accept something that you personally don't think is plausible from a lore perspective.  It'd be like if someone tried to pretend that the Calamity never happened, or wanted to tell you that they were the Warrior of Light, or that they are the blood descendent of Bahamut. 

 

It's annoying for the same reason that Godmodding is annoying.  A person is taking their RP out of the territory of "My character says or does this," and into the territory of "I am telling you that this is how the world works."  All of a sudden you can't really RP with each other because you're both playing by different rules.  If you tell me that your character can fly by flapping his arms really fast, and my character expresses disbelief, and then you proceed to emote your character flying around the sky with the greatest of ease, then I think I'm justified in finding that obnoxious.  My character, however, would find it fascinating and would tell everyone she knew about it.  I don't really want to have to do this, so I have to break character and treat it as mundane or uninteresting in order to continue to RP with that person about things other than their magical flying power.

[Shoshopu]

That'd be assuming I know said hamburger, before they suddenly were a salad.

 

Now, if a salad walked up to me and said "hey at one point I was a hamburger", I'm probably going to think they're crazy.

 

Which ICly, I have done in the past to people who do this, and then they get mad at me OOCly because I'm not forcing my character to accept the absurd notion that this bowl of green lettuce and red tomatoes was once a juicy meat patty between two toasty buns.

 

Some of them you might not even know that's how they got to where they are, so does that really affect you at all? Or do you only care about Fantasia usage when it's affected your personal circle?

 

I should mention that a lot of players treat their IC Fantasia as a significant part of their character's history.  You don't find out about it right away but as you get to know them they come out with it, or a friend of theirs casually says something like "that was back when he was a Lalafell" and all of a sudden you have to respond to this.  The reason it's immersion breaking is because your character is being asked to accept something that you personally don't think is plausible from a lore perspective.  It'd be like if someone tried to pretend that the Calamity never happened, or wanted to tell you that they were the Warrior of Light, or that they are the blood descendent of Bahamut. 

 

It's annoying for the same reason that Godmodding is annoying.  A person is taking their RP out of the territory of "My character says or does this," and into the territory of "I am telling you that this is how the world works."  All of a sudden you can't really RP with each other because you're both playing by different rules.  If you tell me that your character can fly by flapping his arms really fast, and my character expresses disbelief, and then you proceed to emote your character flying around the sky with the greatest of ease, then I think I'm justified in finding that obnoxious.  My character, however, would find it fascinating and would tell everyone she knew about it.  I don't really want to have to do this, so I have to break character and treat it as mundane or uninteresting in order to continue to RP with that person about things other than their magical flying power.

Fair points all. I just like being clear on everything 'cause I'm equal parts curious, nosy and semantic. :B

 

I'm a little confused as to what, exactly, is actually being discussed at this point. It shouldn't be terribly difficult for people to accept that when someone chooses to embrace a particularly controversial storytelling device then not everybody is going to smile and accept it readily.

 

Nobody is demanding that people stop doing it. They're simply explaining why they, themselves, don't really have any interest in going along with it.

 

I don't think there's much to be accomplished from reading too deeply into analogies especially when different people can walk away with completely different interpretations.

To clear up your confusion, I was just asking Tumensuns for more clarification on what his opinion was because it was unclear at first. I didn't think there was anything wrong with that, and I sure didn't mean to come off as trying to make Tumensuns accept that other people do it.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Home so I could read through things a little easier then on my phone. First off...

 

My analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally or be super dissected. The essential message was simply that, in the end, the results are the same with just a slight difference to the method. The end result is accepted, but for me (personally) bickering over how that is achieved just causes more issues then not. By all means, people are welcome to their differing opinions! But to be dickish to those that use a method you (using 'you' in the broad, general sense) don't agree with is unacceptable. Period. It takes absolutely no effort to be a polite human being and let the person know that, while you may not agree with it, if it would be alright if you/your character overlooked it due to the conflict in lore.

 

Boom. There. Finished. Not many people would argue with that polite approach and most can walk away happily.

 

Now, I will be the first to admit as an RPer I have used fantasias ICly. Why? Because when they first became readily available over a year ago, I was one of those that looked it over and was like 'Hmmm...IC or not IC?'. Given everything is very much a fantasy setting with dragons that can make you understand their language, a superior but now mostly extinct race that were super scientific geniuses who created throngs of advanced tech, experiments, etc. (the Allagans) and a whole list of other things...well, the usage of a potion that can change your appearance seems super miniscule to me.

 

In the end? If you can find a good way to explain it ICly, go for it! But just be prepared that not everyone will agree too it and learn to shrug it off if someone gets super 'rawr, grawr, shaaaaame' about it. There's plenty of people who will accept it with good IC reasoning over those who won't.

[Tumensuns]

Home so I could read through things a little easier then on my phone. First off...

 

My analogy wasn't meant to be taken literally or be super dissected. The essential message was simply that, in the end, the results are the same with just a slight difference to the method. The end result is accepted, but for me (personally) bickering over how that is achieved just causes more issues then not. By all means, people are welcome to their differing opinions! But to be dickish to those that use a method you (using 'you' in the broad, general sense) don't agree with is unacceptable. Period. It takes absolutely no effort to be a polite human being and let the person know that, while you may not agree with it, if it would be alright if you/your character overlooked it due to the conflict in lore.

 

Boom. There. Finished. Not many people would argue with that polite approach and most can walk away happily.

 

Now, I will be the first to admit as an RPer I have used fantasias ICly. Why? Because when they first became readily available over a year ago, I was one of those that looked it over and was like 'Hmmm...IC or not IC?'. Given everything is very much a fantasy setting with dragons that can make you understand their language, a superior but now mostly extinct race that were super scientific geniuses who created throngs of advanced tech, experiments, etc. (the Allagans) and a whole list of other things...well, the usage of a potion that can change your appearance seems super miniscule to me.

 

In the end? If you can find a good way to explain it ICly, go for it! But just be prepared that not everyone will agree too it and learn to shrug it off if someone gets super 'rawr, grawr, shaaaaame' about it. There's plenty of people who will accept it with good IC reasoning over those who won't.

 

It's more of a question of continuity, not people just being mean spirited. If fantasia was as readily available, then why aren't we weaponizing it(as someone had said earlier in this thread)? Or why haven't we seen instances of it in the main story? Sure would have helped with the whole Ul'dah thing if we could just change form.

 

It's fantasy, but all fantasy is usually grounded by reality. We still follow the laws of gravity, for example. Without any sort of continuity, what exactly is stopping us from being cyborg werewolf demons? Or a jedi? or Bill Murray?

 

This is not some sleight to be dickish, or whatever you want to call people who ask for a little bit of credibility, just a general inquiry of where exactly does the line get drawn between being apart of the universe created by the developers, and going against it.

[FreelanceWizard]

It's more of a question of continuity, not people just being mean spirited. If fantasia was as readily available, then why aren't we weaponizing it(as someone had said earlier in this thread)? Or why haven't we seen instances of it in the main story? Sure would have helped with the whole Ul'dah thing if we could just change form.

 

Because, as Fernehalwes said at the London Fan Fest, Fantasia can only turn you into what you (the drinker) actually really feel that you truly are and truly want to be. So, it can't be used as a weapon, to facilitate crime, to escape danger, and so on; it simply doesn't work that way. It just lets you transform yourself into the thing you want to be deep in your heart.

 

Now, sure, you can argue that he was just being playful with an answer and that the fact that it never shows up in the MSQ is an argument against its existence, but IMO, there's enough "cover" at this point to justify Fantasia's existence, as well as enough lore regarding its rarity to justify people being quite skeptical about it ICly (though don't forget full body glamours, which show up in several quest lines).

[Gegenji]

Because, as Fernehalwes said at the London Fan Fest, Fantasia can only turn you into what you (the drinker) actually really feel that you truly are and truly want to be. So, it can't be used as a weapon, to facilitate crime, to escape danger, and so on; it simply doesn't work that way. It just lets you transform yourself into the thing you want to be deep in your heart.

 

It hasn't been used that way, though. Fantasia potions I've seen (from outside, in passing and such rather than actual interactions) used in RP were usually boiled down to little more than "Oops, I accidentally drank this and I'm a Lalafell." It's nothing about the person being a Lalafell deep down - and they can change back just as easily - which kinda conflicts with Ferne's explanation.

 

That said (and I think I've mentioned it before, either in this thread or elsewhere), I have nothing against the use of Fantasia in an IC sense. As long as it fits the story and character being presented to me. If the event is supposed to be lighthearted and goofy and not altogether serious, a "whoops we're all Miqo'te" arc could be in good fun. It's just when Fantasia is being used solely as a cop-out that I would have issue - no reason for being the race in a permanent sense beyond "I drank a Fantasia." Even just putting in a bit about feeling out of place and some strange merchant gave you a vial that brought out "your true self" would help some.

 

Of course, there's plenty of other options too - being cursed by Sylphs or some witch or something. The aforementioned glamours and Fantasia just being an OOC way to facilitate all that. However, again, how well I'll take it when it's presented to me is wholly dependent on said presentation. And I continually mention "presented to me" because it really only will matter if it's something I'm dealing with, right? No real need for concern about what Gordon the Hyur-turned-Roe's deal is if I never interact with him.

 

Or something. I could just be rambling. I do that sometimes. :blush:

[FreelanceWizard]

Because, as Fernehalwes said at the London Fan Fest, Fantasia can only turn you into what you (the drinker) actually really feel that you truly are and truly want to be. So, it can't be used as a weapon, to facilitate crime, to escape danger, and so on; it simply doesn't work that way. It just lets you transform yourself into the thing you want to be deep in your heart.

 

It hasn't been used that way, though. Fantasia potions I've seen (from outside, in passing and such rather than actual interactions) used in RP were usually boiled down to little more than "Oops, I accidentally drank this and I'm a Lalafell." It's nothing about the person being a Lalafell deep down - and they can change back just as easily - which kinda conflicts with Ferne's explanation.

 

I'm definitely not in favor of the "oopsie! I've changed my race all of a sudden!" use of Fantasia, because as you note, that also goes against what Fernehalwes said -- unless, I suppose, your character's deep-down desire is to be a constantly shifting being with no clear identity.

 

I suppose I'm more willing to defend Fantasia and similar artifice because the two times I've been near its use ICly, it's been part of long-term character development arcs, there's been significant consequences involved, and the people involved were fine with the IC skepticism being tossed their way.

 

Personally, I like the idea of someone feeling out of place, like they're a hyur trapped in a auri body, waking up one morning to find a mysterious vial near their bed with a card that says, "Drink me ". Where did it come from? Who made it? It made your life better since you drank it, but its provenance is mysterious.

[Lilia Lia]

It's just when Fantasia is being used solely as a cop-out that I would have issue - no reason for being the race in a permanent sense beyond "I drank a Fantasia." Even just putting in a bit about feeling out of place and some strange merchant gave you a vial that brought out "your true self" would help some.

 

In a funny way, I actually find it easier to deal with people whose IC Fantasia has an "oops" explanation than people who make it a major part of their story.  When it boils down to it, no matter how much time and effort people put into their "How I IC Fantasia'd" story, the grand majority of people are really changing their race for OOC reasons, and adjusting their IC stories thereafter.  "This new race looks neat, I want to Fantasia into one, but I need to find a way to make it work with my story..."  At least this is the case with every IC Fantasia I've ever seen.

 

So in that way they tend to be kind of immersion-breaking.  It's like when an actor in a soap opera quits so the writers have to come up with some explanation for why they aren't there anymore.  It will always feel kind of disingenuous. 

 

Anyways, the "oops" stories are easier to cope with because people in those situations are more willing to just not talk about it, whereas some people who choose to RP their race change will inevitably make it part of a huge portion of all of their RP, so it's harder for people who aren't open to that kind of thing.