Patch 2.41 Notes

[Kage]

Level 30 job quest requirements have been adjusted as follows:

 

Before:

Players must reach level 30 with the job’s associated class.

After:

Players must reach level 30 with the job’s associated class, and have completed the main scenario quest "Sylph-management."

I'd like to point this out for giggles.

 

I assume this is an anti-RMT almost feature.

[Miryn]

These changes were more significant than I think anyone was expecting, but also completely necessary, if the party is being put together with Duty Finder. Looking over everything, T6-T8 now seem to be a level where it is entirely possible for a group of strangers to become familiar with the mechanics and beat it in one session, as opposed to several (ragequit) sessions later. It won't be faceroll easy as some people on the forums suggest, but with a lot of the one-shot mechanics dialed down (some of them where failing the mechanic meant killing your whole raid) people will get farther into the fight and hopefully snag a clear.

 

I am sad only Turn 9 was left intact, but the 'glory' of SCoB's difficulty still lives on in my memories, nothing will change my team's weeks of tears, laughter, and joy while we threw ourselves against it. Meanwhile, there are a lot of people in my FC who want to try SCoB but were put off by the difficulty; with this, we can more easily get them in there and teach them the turns. There is really important story content in Coil that should be accessible to everyone (and I think the fights are fun). All around, these were good changes.

 

And hey, with Turn 7 being virtually a completely different fight, maybe we can convince our bard to farm it with us again. ;D

[Melodia]

 

 

There's no (good) reason to prefer that casual players be forever locked out of old content.

Thank you Aya :love:

[Kage]

I've heard that the story content in FCOB.

 

I can't tell you want it is. But I really want to get into FCOB.

 

But to do that I need to clear Nael. ><

 

To be honest I didn't expect SCOB to be nerfed to this extent based on BCOB... but then I realized that BCOB didn't have the same level of fight-reset-needing-if-messed-up mechanics. But man @@; All the tiny mistakes that would have caused my static to wipe on any farm run would be negligible now @@

 

T6 - Fuck holding DPS! Just burn burn burn.

T7 - And DPS holds in case of needing Voice/Shriek on Renauds has been well... lol I've read someone say that Renauds only do like 1k damage.

T8 - Looks like tower push requirements have been changed? Sounds like the most likely raid wipe due to landmines not being taken care of was made into non-raid wipe.

 

whistles

[Sounsyy]

On the one hand, I'm really really glad they've opened up SCOB (2.2 content) to be accessible to people without a static, and I think these changes were realistically the only way to make that content easily do-able for more casual players or players who had just not even attempted SCOB before. Or players new to the game entirely.

 

At the same time... those nerfs are kinda painful to look at.

[Gegenji]

That's always the way of raiding, I think. Especially for those who put in the effort and the hours to overcome it pre-nerf. You came at it when it was new, fresh, and hard, and managed to overcome it with coordination and skill. The story arcs that you unlocked and the pieces of gear you gained were a symbol of your achievement. It's like seeing all the people running around with Onyxia gear when you remember the days of the 40-man raid in WoW.

 

 

... Oddly enough, I kinda felt echos of that when they upped the Atma drop rate after I had JUST finished that phase of the zodiac chain. :lol:

[Kage]

I just read this anecdote while someone tried to do T6 today after 2.41.

 

I just DFed T6 to see how people would handle the mechanics, 6 of us were experienced with the fight, one healer was new and one NIN was new. The healer would run around during blight (and subsequently died even with the nerf to to blight), the NIN ran around as soon as he got honey glazed as if he thought the hornet wouldn't follow him.

 

This led to me (in my infinite wisdom) trying to follow him (instead of just letting him die and attacking the hornet when he targets someone else) and then I got marked by devour and the MT took the devour because I was way out of position trying to kill the hornet. Oh and I didn't die to the devour, I died before I got devoured because the healer that died from blight never accepted the other healer's raise. NIN also refused to attack the Dark Matter Bulb that spawned in the middle.

 

I'm still interested in the job thing. Now you can't easily make alts either. I know of several people who told me that they didn't do many dungeons to even get close to finish main scenario quests who still got to 50 jobs.

[Kage]

These are the adjusted icons btw

[Zyrusticae]

I am of the mind that these nerfs are misguided and the real solution is to have "story mode" and "normal/hard mode" Coils so people who just want the story content can get their clear and move on.

 

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in raiding progression and will never, ever touch this content even after the nerfs because I cannot stand being held back by other players and trying to coordinate things with random strangers. It's too bloody stressful for something that's supposed to be my bloody entertainment. YES, I MAD!

 

Even post-nerf I'm never going to clear T5 or T9 because there are too many players who can't run them and too few players who can who are actually willing to help me with it. And I don't care to go through that kind of trouble. It's not fun. Not even remotely so.

 

The hardest thing about hardcore raiding has always been the people management. No small wonder that games that focus specifically on that junk fail before long (lol Wildstar). It's an outdated, outmoded type of content and frankly, I wouldn't be sad at all to see it disappear entirely (but I wouldn't suggest that because it does serve a very specific, if unfortunately toxic, kind of customer).

[Merri]

I am of the mind that these nerfs are misguided and the real solution is to have "story mode" and "normal/hard mode" Coils so people who just want the story content can get their clear and move on.

 

This is more or less my stance on the subject as well. I'm certainly not against giving more people the opportunity to experience coil, which is why at the end of the day I'm not terribly upset. My static is finished with second coil, outside of farming a few T9 drops for people who still want stuff (Gotta get that damn coat to drop already), so the nerfs don't directly affect us. However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit bummed that if we were to go back and do content for whatever reason, it just wouldn't be the same as it was.

 

If they would just keep normal coil the way it was, savage coil the way it is (which they have so far, thankfully) and introduce an easier story mode coil, I think they would have a decent balance.

 

Instead, they just kinda ruin the integrity of certain content. Granted it's old and no longer terribly relevant content, but it's still just sort of broken now in a sense to certain groups. Can't please everyone, however, so it is what it is.

[allgivenover]

That's a bad idea. The story is almost as big an incentive to many Coil groups as the gear. Making an easy "story mode" coil would go a long way toward me and many others being less interested. It's also totally needless because all of the cutscenes get posted anyway. I'd rather them not pull away from what they're supposed to be doing, crafting the hardest of the hard content for the game, so they can develop a "story mode" version.

 

They just need to not rely so heavily on team jump-rope in the future to make things difficult is really all it is. That way these huge nerfs would not be necessary.

[Dat Oni]

Having just beaten T5 as Edgar, this is a godsend for me. The timing couldn't be more perfect. I'm still scared shitless of T9, though.

[Kellach Woods]

I'd settle on just being able to get ON ;.;

 

However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit bummed that if we were to go back and do content for whatever reason, it just wouldn't be the same as it was.

 

Even if they didn't change a danged thing, and even if you went with the very same gear you had at that point, the experience wouldn't be the same due to changes to the classes themselves, game's stability, tiny fixes here and there.

[Kage]

The better gear you have + echo makes a bit of difference.

 

I have finally moved onto learning how to move around in heavensfall and get to start learning divebombs and the IN OUT IN WHATCHAMACALL ITS in T9 because of echo. We guarantee < or = 4 meteors before golems. Golems are killed easily and 2nd set goes down before the 10 seconds to Megaflare message.

 

Yay! Still won't survive heavensfall on your head or pushing you into the wall though. Damn placement and horrible evasion of GHost death aoe into heavensfall.

[Nebbs]

Well I was into heavenafall on T9 after joining a statc (thanks Ilwe), and with the echo I expect that we will finish T9 soon.

 

Though I have yet to finish 7 or even go in 8. But now they are in DF I can get the learning tries in without having to go through the PF pain. Also with the removal of sudden death and gear over i110 it will be more scrabble and less finess.

 

I still don't know why they don't DF new content.

[Steel Wolf]

I am of the mind that these nerfs are misguided and the real solution is to have "story mode" and "normal/hard mode" Coils so people who just want the story content can get their clear and move on.

 

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in raiding progression and will never, ever touch this content even after the nerfs because I cannot stand being held back by other players and trying to coordinate things with random strangers. It's too bloody stressful for something that's supposed to be my bloody entertainment. YES, I MAD!

 

Even post-nerf I'm never going to clear T5 or T9 because there are too many players who can't run them and too few players who can who are actually willing to help me with it. And I don't care to go through that kind of trouble. It's not fun. Not even remotely so.

 

The hardest thing about hardcore raiding has always been the people management. No small wonder that games that focus specifically on that junk fail before long (lol Wildstar). It's an outdated, outmoded type of content and frankly, I wouldn't be sad at all to see it disappear entirely (but I wouldn't suggest that because it does serve a very specific, if unfortunately toxic, kind of customer).

 

QFF'inT! Preach it mah kitteh!!

 

The problem with raids are (generally) the raiders. Or more specifically, the prevalent attitude that others can't have their prestige or join their little boys' club.

 

I am ALL FOR a story/solo version for those who would like to get the plot associated with a raid or major dungeon and a normal/hard version for those who must have BiS or their ePeen Enhancement.

 

Gating content behind gearscores and raiding attitudes is THE WORST design prevalent in the themepark MMO and it needs to die.

 

/rant

 

...WHEW! I feel way better.

[Warren Castille]

I'll voice the unpopular opinion, then.

 

There's not a single part of Coil that's currently pertinent to the main storyline. It's closure for 1.0. As far as the current plot is concerned, Coil's got no bearing on it whatsoever.

 

For me, it's cost/benefit. My playtime isn't as large as it used to be and Coil's hard numbers requirement (hope you've got exactly seven friends) just isn't worth grappling with. I just find the cutscenes and write-ups elsewhere because I'm interested in them, but don't particularly care if I see my character in the scene or not. The plot's important, not my avatar in them.

 

It's a slippery slope if you suddenly enable people who can't do endgame to do endgame on an Easy Mode. Does everyone realize there's story attached to the Extreme Modes? Nerf those so I can solo clear Titan EX and see the cutscenes. Crystal Tower queues are too long, I want a solo version so I can see how it turns out.

 

The changes to SCoB are dramatic. Folks who couldn't do Coil before can do so now without fear of instantly wiping their raid, but you still have to know your ass from a hole in the ground to participate. You have to work for the reward, and sometimes that means slugging it out with awful PF or DF groups to get what you want. I don't want handouts.

 

To be remarkably unpopular and probably anger a lot of people, Twintania isn't that difficult. It takes wiping repeatedly to each phase to know what you're supposed to do, but that's to be expected from final bosses! T9 is the same way; You can't expect to just waltz in unopposed and get your loot/cutscenes. There's a very structured rotation to every single aspect of that fight and it comes down to just rote memorization/anticipation.

 

Are you going to wipe because of other idiots who can't get their heads on straight? You bet your ass you are. I can't count the number of times I've wiped on because idiot don't know how to handle and in a lot of the difficult fights once people start dying, that's the ballgame. I've been that guy, and I've been inconvenienced because of that guy, and I've inconvenienced people by being that guy. It sucks. No one would disagree with you. But, everyone's been there.

 

But out of those encounters you find the people who have brains in their heads and you make new friends. I've got a number of people on my friend's list that are only there because we know that we can do if we need it. That's working as intended - You meet new people while playing the game.

 

I don't understand the grousing, I guess. If you're not able to play at the level the game requests of you, keep practicing. If you are but others aren't, look for the people who can and make a strike team. If that takes too much time or effort, find the cutscenes on youtube or the write-ups on fansites. If it's SO IMPORTANT that you be the star in those cutscenes, well... 30 goto 10.

[Steel Wolf]

Fair enough, and I wholly agree that a dungeon should be a challenge for those who want one. I don't fault folks for that, of course.

 

The thing I advocate for are choices.

 

There are more than just those who are completely ice-cold cool with grinding to meet a gearscore metric, and those folks pay the same amount of subscription money as those who park in More Donuts demanding people meet their requisites of knowledge or item level. And, frankly, the point of adventuring ought to be going out and meeting a challenge regardless of an item level.

 

Incidentally (and speaking for only myself) I'm not asking to simply waltz in there. I'd like a challenge too, but one that scales to the individual or the small group. Being forced into a small army or forced out because some folks won't let you in because you haven't done this before isn't challenge. It's jackassery.

 

Now, apparently the story in the Coil as you mentioned holds no major weight for current events. Fair enough. I'd still would have liked to have known what the hell is going on regardless, though. I mean, there's a big-ass dragon underground or something? That's sorta a thing I'd like to see. And the dungeon as an experience as opposed to an experience pool and shinies piñata is just being lost, which I find a bit sad.

 

Ah well, c'est la vie. More people being allowed to do a thing is, apparently, anathema to some's sense of superiority.

 

Clarity check--this is not calling out any one individual here on this forum or this thread. I don't accuse anyone of this behavior specifically (which I had mistakenly assumed of Kage like a dipsh**. Sorry, Kage-kun). My grousing is more resultant of design and the attitudes of some emergent of said design.

[Warren Castille]

I can respect those opinions on choices, and to a large degree I agree with you. Being required to have exactly eight people makes for strenuous dealings, especially when needing to worry about progression lock-outs and the like.

 

The real challenge is, well, the challenge. After some of the top raiding groups cleared Coil2 and subsequently Savage Coil2, I know at least one of them revisited Coil1. There isn't a Savage version yet, so what they did to entertain themselves was clearing all of it at i55 with no Echo.

 

To reiterate that, because I think it's pretty ridiculous and worth repeating: A group of raiders cleared Coil1 up to Twintania (I don't recall if they ever beat her, but I stopped tracking them once they got through T4's DPS checks) wearing only dungeon greens from AK.

 

I know, I know. Cream of the crop, top of the line, best of the best. But there were people in full i90 who couldn't clear T4 when it was relevant. My point is that it becomes very difficult to gauge what is a proper challenge when the spectrum is so huge across the field.

 

I perhaps undervalued the significance of Coil's story, but I'll be vague because of spoilers: The topics discussed in it are the same topics discussed in the main story quests. The revelation is a bit more heavy-handed, but it doesn't tell us anything we don't specifically already know or suspect, and it is really, really cool, but ultimately it's still just the end of the 1.0 storyline. It's a good story, but it isn't a necessary one outside of the bits of lore it expounds upon.

 

I just know someone's going to beat me over the head on that particular point, and I half-agree with the validity of that.

 

Dungeons as an experience are also something I'd like to see more of. That's still a tricky dance, though. If dungeons become more complex, you're liable to alienate the folks who aren't up to the task. I recall fairly clearly back in 2.0 when the only dungeons worth doing at 50 were the only level 50 dungeons. You did WP or you did AK, and there was a huge number of people who couldn't do either. If you wanted i90 gear your options were Coil or grinding Mythology. Finding people to reliably meet the DPS check on Demon Wall wasn't a given. Finding people who wouldn't get ripped to shreds by the puddings in WP wasn't a given.

 

And then people complained. The gap was further complicated by the folks who started speedrunning WP and AK. People who couldn't do the dungeons cried out for nerfs on account of "exploits" and gates were put in to require more enemies killed. With those gates, there were still people who couldn't clear WP or AK reliably.

 

So, what's the plan? Make dungeons require minimal mechanic learning? I only JUST found out yesterday that you can pass Prey onto someone else during Sastasha HM's first boss. This was a revelation to me because you could ALSO do it with Inhale during the Zombiegoobue in Ampador City. That's a whole mechanic that got avoided and could have sped things up or made fights smoother. I still don't know how the first boss of Snowcloak works mechanically; You're plenty able to just throw DPS at it until he melts, though.

 

If you do that, you're only going to make things "worse" in the longrun when stepping into the new Coil or Coil-equivalent. You do your subscribers a disservice by suddenly ratcheting up the difficulty on them like that. Hell, going from Titan HM and getting your relic to fighting ADS1 in Coil1 Turn1 is a hell of a wake-up call. Mechanics! Adds! High Voltage! One slip-up and that's it. There was no feeling it out, no figuring it out as you go. Cad was the same way if you got to him. You executed a known-gameplan or everyone blew up. And there was NO ramp-up to this, it went from cyclical "easy" Titan mechanics to raid-wiping explosions in one trash hallway.

 

So do we make dungeons teach people how to dance with serious mechanics? Or do we leave that portion of PVE a mostly-cakewalk and then spring all of the instant death on folks in the endgame?

 

I think this is why there's such a large disparity between the raiding community and the non-raiding community. There's really no place to practice your skills for raiding outside of raiding and that basically means you don't raid unless you're already raiding with raiders who were raiding. All applicants must have experience in the field to join at an entry level. Self-defeating.

 

I'm rambling. Bleh.

[Gegenji]

I think this is why there's such a large disparity between the raiding community and the non-raiding community. There's really no place to practice your skills for raiding outside of raiding and that basically means you don't raid unless you're already raiding with raiders who were raiding. All applicants must have experience in the field to join at an entry level. Self-defeating.

This is actually something I noticed and was bothered by back in WoW. "To run this raid, you have to have run this raid." Before the advent of the Raid Finder modes and the like, the only way to get experience on the raid content was to have an in through a friend in a raiding guild who was willing to vouch for you.

 

It's certainly not a field you can just waltz into, and I still remember how daunting it was as a fledgling raider back in the days of Molten Core 40 mans. At least there, the raid sizes were so bloated that you could coast along on everyone else's skill until you got the hang of things. I'm terrified to think how such things work in Coil, where there's such a difference in raider number. As such, I've only gotten to the first Coil... 2 (?) - the one before the "bouncy castle" - and that was through Duty Finder queues.

[Warren Castille]

This is actually something I noticed and was bothered by back in WoW. "To run this raid, you have to have run this raid." Before the advent of the Raid Finder modes and the like, the only way to get experience on the raid content was to have an in through a friend in a raiding guild who was willing to vouch for you.

 

It's certainly not a field you can just waltz into, and I still remember how daunting it was as a fledgling raider back in the days of Molten Core 40 mans. At least there, the raid sizes were so bloated that you could coast along on everyone else's skill until you got the hang of things. I'm terrified to think how such things work in Coil, where there's such a difference in raider number. As such, I've only gotten to the first Coil... 2 (?) - the one before the "bouncy castle" - and that was through Duty Finder queues.

 

WoW's Looking for Raid difficulty is pretty great. The instant-death mechanics get turned down to raidwide damage, the raidwide damage gets reduced to far lesser numbers, and the difficulty is greatly decreased when it comes to healing/dps checks.

 

Of course, there's always the "problem" that an unknowledgeable tank will still explode everyone if they don't know what to do or where to stand, but even that was toned down for LFR.

 

Coil's got that problem, still. Even after nerfs and echo, a tank standing in the wrong place can and will kill you. Titan EX Gaols come to mind, Garuda EX placement comes to mind, Dreadnaughts in T4 will still wreck healers with cleaves...

 

And yes, you've done Turns 1 and 2 of the First Coil of Bahamut. Most people skip the Bounce House because there's no loot, no echo, no boss, no reasons.

[Kage]

From the spoilers I've read into FCOB, there isn't just speculation but real....plots? Points? Yes I'm gonna half-heartedly slap you on this because dear fucking god do I want to be finished with T12 and T13 because what I've heard about them and what is going on is -sweeeet-.

 

The thing is, I'm happy they make "older" content more accessible. Honestly? I hate running T5 as just a "one off" or so with only one other person. If I don't have 6 other people (not just me and a person who needs it), it's such a pain to revisit because of the mechanics in the fight and not being able to trust said other "randoms". But when you can get a full party to wipe away at it, stick at it for a bit, you can eventually teach them how to deal with said mechanics if they're going to be raiding. I'd rather wipe with a group I know, and also prepared mentally because it can be exhausting otherwise, than do it with one or 3 people I know and the rest people that may leave in 30 minutes.

 

When the mechanics are messed with, the fights become almost entirely different. But sometimes those things happen just because of gear. I haven't done T7 yet since 2.41 and since the lockout was removed so this way we can go do T9 or go to T8 for farming, etc., but T7 was a completely weird and messed up fight because of gearing. We had long periods of time when we had to hold dps for a new voice or shriek because we didn't want to transition awkwardly -just because of gear-.

 

My opinion is that if you do care about raiding, you're most likely striving for the new content. If you do like the challenge, you reduce the gear you have to what is the ilvl requirement to queue into DF with like minded people. At those ilvls, a 3.5k hit to a mage will still hurt; it's still punishing when you take that blighted. I think the fights can still be quite challenging if you're doing it like that but if you're geared for T13 accuracy reqs and you're stuck at T5, I'm pretty sure you want to just be done with BCOB already. If you're striving for the new content and are behind (aka BCOB headed for FCOB) you might want to finish SCOB as fast as possible while T5 and T9 are still good gates.

 

T5 took me about 1 month (a couple of weeks of daily 1.5+hr sessions) to get comfortable with the mechanics and start clearing consistently with people, having gotten to see T5 a week or three before the lockout on T5 was removed and SCOB introduced. I've been working on T9 for maybe a month of raiding, 2-3 days a week and only just reached the sight of phase 4. I hit T9 like 2 weeks or so before 2.4 hit.

 

With echo, a Benediction or Lustrate is not nearly as needed on our Single Tank in T9 as it was before with Ravensbeak+kablooey it has. The double meteor streams that used to kill me are much more easily healable than before. The "your healer needs to time that Medica II better" isn't quite as jarring and needed. I walked into T9 last night with almost 6k hp as a BLM. 6000! With some of the food to boost my dps, I was almost 6100! The cleaves aren't going to one-shot me anymore due to nerfs or because the damage done is reduced. See blighted for reduced damage.

 

I mean, some things do come with raiding. Positioning a mob so that they don't deal massive damage to your group is a tank's job, not just getting hit in the face. There still is more to the fights than general tank and spank. Your party shouldn't just be everywhere willy-nilly taking all the damage as if they -are- a  -tank- either.

 

I think T3 is good for SBing but I forgot what ilvl. That's about it. The loot is the random general dungeon loot like potions or x-ethers etc. Nothing like the drops at the end of each turn like a HA CHEST OF HEALING OR WHATEVER.

[Warren Castille]

I should point out that while I'm in favor of the massive nerfs, I'm also a bit remiss that a portion of the game is now irrevocably changed. The closest thing I can liken it to is this:

 

The FFXI exp grind was a miserable one, with a lot of inconvenient locations, a lot of grueling grinding hours and a lot of pushing hard for your levels. Expansions came out and made it easier, but then there came a way to mass-level stuff for minimal effort and it completely removed the block that was the leveling process.

 

I acknowledge this was a beneficial change for the game as a whole. I understand it was a good thing.

 

BUT THAT WON'T STOP MY STOCKHOLM SYNDROME. Leveling was a badge of honor, until it wasn't. I'm always going to have a degree of nonsensical nostalgia for how things were when they get changed suddenly.

 

Also

They confirm what the MSQ thinks about Eorzea and the Land of Make-Believe. Folks who finished Coil will just know sooner than the MSQ tells us.

 

[LiveVoltage]

SCOB T6-8 is so easy now, lol. I cleared T6 the first day of 2.4.1 patch on my first try and without knowing how to do the fight, lol.

 

I think they have not nerfed T9 in some way yet save Echo buff because they are still looking into what they can nerf. That or they will just keep everything as is but give echo buff to help survive and push phases. IDK. Kinda dont want them to nerf T9 though, even though I have never played or attempted it yet.

[Kage]

If I remember correctly, the only things they changed in T5 were the conflags' and others' health. Other than that, as far as I'm aware, the fight stayed the same. T9 is the same just with -10%- echo.

 

10% is big When BCOB got echo, it was only 5% at first. I think it's now 25% @_@ If I take my BLM into T5, it will have 6.5k hp. That's how much my Bard has in T9. My Astral III'd Fire 1s will go from 1200 to 1500 (non crit!).

 

I feel like T5 and T9 are still good "raid gates". You still need to learn to raid, learning to deal with mechanics and such.