4.0 will not require 3.0 to be completed

[Kage]

Based on the very early info, 4.0 will still require 2.0-2.55 and 3.0 Main Scenario completion.

[Ignacius]

I'm not sure I agree that us not accepting certain difficulty and length considerations are necessarily good for us gamers.  It's something we say we want, but we have a tendency to complain about the effects of it.

 

I mean, it makes sense.  You want to achieve.  You want to have the time you spend mean something.  However, you also want to HAVE it, not to be working on it.  So we've tried to make things easier to achieve and, conversely, more and more people are achieving it and the experience is becoming somewhat less meaningful.  So we complain that games aren't meaningful anymore, that they're just transitory experiences.  There's just dissonance between what we get from our short-term gains and our long-term expectations.

 

It's the same with game difficulty.  Everyone says they want a game that's difficult, that takes skill to master, that isn't afraid to kill them when they make a mistake and for those deaths to have consequences.  But when we're given those, we also tend to think the game is too grindy, too hard, new-player-unfriendly, etc.  So we complain about these and the game gets easier.  Then we complain that there's no challenge in games anymore.

 

Unfortunately, we may not necessarily like what we're getting anymore, but we're getting what we're asking for (and largely what we're paying for, in the case of F2P games essentially being the video game equivalent of the shows on TV to sell us toys as kids).  Which is a shame especially to MMORPGs, since they were supposed to be communities.  They were meant to be the future of gaming.  And now, since they can't really offer us content that can keep us occupied for years and engaged in the story, they're one-and-done.

 

Most games these days are like TV shows and movies, entertainment content that plays out in front of us that, in this case, tends to require button presses to advance the story.  It's not as satisfying, and we know that, but it's largely what we asked for.

 

In a way, I'm beyond really being frustrated about it and I'm just watching it all as a somewhat dissociated observer.  We just don't, as a gaming audience at least, have much room to complain that the games we play aren't as engaging.  By and large, we ordered that removed from gaming so we wouldn't be inconvenienced, not realizing that the interesting parts of the game were the parts that weren't built to cradle us.

[Telluride]

It's a thing they are not going to change, so I am not going to complain about it. Same if I picked up another MMO later then the playerbase, I would be excited to catch up, not whine about it. I started FFXIV later than most, and I simply enjoyed catching up. I didn't give a fuck about the story pre-50, I enjoyed the game mechanics, the dungeons and most of all, the community. I saw no reason to pull out my whining card, but simply dealt with being behind most because the game was fun.

 

 

 

and for the newer playerbase it will be dealbreaker whether they get the game or not.

 

(snip applied for brevity)

 

And what people are talking about in this thread is that the MSQ stops being fun after one playthrough.

 

We're asking, "If we have to go through a really clunky, gating story, and not even a particularly great one, all over again, then why SHOULDN'T we pick up a new MMO?"

 

PVP plays a rather small role in this game compared to others, so I think it's fair to say that people who want and enjoy that particular sort of grind are more likely to seek out another game, anyway... which brings us full circle.

[V'aleera]

Unless SE plans to massively restructure how the game works, I imagine the only things that won't be gated by the MSQ are new jobs, area access, and maybe leveling dungeons.

[Gegenji]

And what people are talking about in this thread is that the MSQ stops being fun after one playthrough.

 

I don't mind the MSQ that much, and I still skip the cutscenes on the second and third times around. It becomes more mechanical at that point - do the quests for the XP, don't read the text, just get it done and out of the way. I probably wouldn't have even bothered with the MSQ if dungeons weren't locked behind it and - most importantly - the quests provided the most XP.

 

... Not to mention that the sidequests were ALSO gated behind your progression in the MSQ, along with getting flight so you can get around the new areas faster. Without all that, you're stuck with just dungeon runs (which you needed to unlock to be able to run them, of course) and the mindless tedium that is FATE grinding (which requires flight to be able to get to the FATEs in a timely manner).

 

So, even if 4.0 doesn't "require" it specifically... I have a feeling it'll be "required" in its own way. Unless you plan to FATE-grind on foot from 50-60.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Someone who played WoW correct me if I'm wrong (I never did).

 

...did WoW expansions require progression on every character to access new areas like the current system in FFXIV? Or was that progression unlocked account-wide as long as one character existed that could get to a new area?

 

I can and DO understand the gripes about having to chug through the story again for alts. There's a reason mine are below level 10 for the most part. One of the consequences of FFXIV being designed as a "your one character can do everything!" game is that it's extremely alt-unfriendly. SE looks to hopefully be changing that at least starting from now.

 

 

Off-topic side-note: We also haven't even gotten 3.1 yet. Let's uh...try to hold off potential anger at 4.0 which is probably 2+ years away?

[Dravus]

So long as the quality and depth of the story doesn't end up being affected in a negative manner then I'm not too bothered. I do wonder how they intend to tie everything together though. Perhaps we'll get some new low level zones and a fresh point for additional characters to enter the main story?

[Ignacius]

Someone who played WoW correct me if I'm wrong (I never did).

 

...did WoW expansions require progression on every character to access new areas like the current system in FFXIV? Or was that progression unlocked account-wide as long as one character existed that could get to a new area?

 

I can and DO understand the gripes about having to chug through the story again for alts. There's a reason mine are below level 10 for the most part. One of the consequences of FFXIV being designed as a "your one character can do everything!" game is that it's extremely alt-unfriendly. SE looks to hopefully be changing that at least starting from now.

 

 

Off-topic side-note: We also haven't even gotten 3.1 yet. Let's uh...try to hold off potential anger at 4.0 which is probably 2+ years away?

 

WoW sort of requires it, and still sort of does, but not the same way.  FFXIV has the main story quests, which you need to advance.  WoW tends to have questlines which run through zones, but contemporaneous to each other, so you don't need to complete them all.  You do need to have your character at a certain level (usually two levels below the former cap) to enter a new expansion's content.

 

So sort of?  I guess?  There's a level limit, but there's nothing like the MSQ which in XIV you must complete to carry on.

[Flickering Ember]

Someone who played WoW correct me if I'm wrong (I never did).

 

...did WoW expansions require progression on every character to access new areas like the current system in FFXIV? Or was that progression unlocked account-wide as long as one character existed that could get to a new area?

 

I can and DO understand the gripes about having to chug through the story again for alts. There's a reason mine are below level 10 for the most part. One of the consequences of FFXIV being designed as a "your one character can do everything!" game is that it's extremely alt-unfriendly. SE looks to hopefully be changing that at least starting from now.

 

 

Off-topic side-note: We also haven't even gotten 3.1 yet. Let's uh...try to hold off potential anger at 4.0 which is probably 2+ years away?

 

Content in WoW was not typically gated, no. You had to be 58 to zone in to BC content but you could just have a warlock friend summon you if you really wanted.

 

When they redid the old world in Cataclysm all the side quests required you to progress linearly to unlock new quests in that zone but you could just go to a different zone instead and do quests there.

[Viola]

I like gated content because it potentially means less bads in queue.

[Oli!]

Or they just heard people unhappy with the giant leveling gate and are designing to accommodate as many players as possible.

 

 

If this is the case, then:

 

 

 

 

 

 

...My intense hatred of gated content aside, my personal hope is that they'll take an Open World approach to future content; if you want to get the full storyline and stuff, you'll have to go back to the old content and do it (unless you don't have it, in which case it's unlocked for you so that you can use the expansion that you paid for). If you don't want to do the content, all the zones are open anyway and you can run around and do whatever you want in them.

 

This approach is what I usually see in MMOs, and I would be very happy if that's what they've decided to go with. Catching characters up through a story that I've done already so that they can get to the new content is a snoozefest.

 

That said, I'm also wondering if this means that new classes, if any, will be added to the character creation screen / put in more accessible locations so that we can acquire them easily.

[Caspar]

As long as the lack of hating doesn't screw with the msq continuity, i don't care. There should be some content inaccessible in any expansion to promote longevity, but i don't see the harm in letting people explore.

[Kellach Woods]

Content in WoW was not typically gated, no. You had to be 58 to zone in to BC content but you could just have a warlock friend summon you if you really wanted.

 

When they redid the old world in Cataclysm all the side quests required you to progress linearly to unlock new quests in that zone but you could just go to a different zone instead and do quests there.

Vanilla to BC : 58

BC to Wrath : 68

Wrath to Cata : 80(!) first instance of needing max level, level cap must be achieved before moving on from here on end.

 

You did not require any content - If you'd, say, just leveled through Battlegrounds, you could still PvE the new zones. The only gate is the level at which you unlock quests. You could still enter the zones (up until Cata most would require a portal to the central hub so you had a more streamlined access to all you would need).

[Ashe]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14. The whole "Marketing ploy" thing is total BS because content was always locked, even in 2.x, if you weren't at a certain point in the story. I play this game for the story and lore...I am an RPer and I am an FF fan who likes the game aspect of...this game >>

So yeah....When I saw this news, I was super disappointed. I liked that FF14 set itself apart with it's own rules and it made sense! I don't get why RPers are mad about not being able to skip past the story...wouldn't you want to know the lore that you learn through everything?

[Marisa]

Whenever these things come up and I don't have a good answer, I like to just throw out some wild speculation. That way it's viewed as a joke if I'm wrong, but I'll be seen as a powerful wizard on the off chance that I'm right.  

 

4.0 will not raise the level cap, and will not be a linear progression like 2.x->3.x. Instead, it will be another level 60 expansion which will take place semi-simultaneously (as far as the in-universe timeline) with the Dragonsong War, in a different part of the world. 

 

The reason for this is that Yoshida has decided to go ahead with his idea of overhauling the battle system. This could just be general class reworks (like WoW used to do when they were modernizing their old classes), or something that changes everything, on the magnitude of when they added jobs back 1.something. Yoshida did mention the idea of building a class system where you choose abilities as you level, which in turn determines your job. We may see that. 

 

So why does this require us to stay at level 60? Well, overhauling the entire combat/class system while still producing new content simultaneously will certainly take more time than they're willing to wait to push a new expansion, given that they're aiming for yearly releases and a 3 month patch cycle. Where this gets tricky is that if they up the level cap to 70, as they would logically do, it delays their overhaul even further. Another 10 levels means a shitload more time they have to spend adding new abilities to the current system, and balancing those abilities. Additionally, they have to factor 10 more levels into their overhaul. If they keep the cap at 60, they just have to get the current balance stabilized and never touch it again. Then they can focus 100% of their efforts on the new system. 

 

It is worth mentioning that Yoshida said there would probably more jobs for 4.0. However, I see these being pretty half-assed when released, something like 'generic tank/dps/healer with a different weapon and 1 original mechanic'. Of course, overhaul rolls around, and we finally see what those jobs were meant to be. 

 

Now, assuming all of the above is true, SE would be wise to release this update 1 patch before 5.0, or more. Basically, throw it out during one of the casual 24-man patches, so everybody has time to figure things out before the next hardcore raid hits. Frankly, I thought they should have done this with the Ninja release, but they didn't manage to finish it until FCoB came out.

[Addison]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14.

 

From what I've read, I've seen the exact opposite. I'm not seeing these new(er) people complaining about doing the MSQ, but rather the veterans complaining that they have to repeat it on an alt. (Completely forgetting the fact that neither FF MMO is alt friendly in the slightest.)

[Ashe]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14.

 

From what I've read, I've seen the exact opposite. I'm not seeing these new(er) people complaining about doing the MSQ, but rather the veterans complaining that they have to repeat it on an alt. (Completely forgetting the fact that neither FF MMO is alt friendly in the slightest.)

This game doesn't requires alts....so the fact people have alts is their own fault really and there is an option not to have them and most people who are not-RPers don't have them.

I have two alts and I've beaten HW twice....took me about two weeks for my alt and now I am working on my third alt. It's not difficult once you know how to do everything.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14.

 

From what I've read, I've seen the exact opposite. I'm not seeing these new(er) people complaining about doing the MSQ, but rather the veterans complaining that they have to repeat it on an alt. (Completely forgetting the fact that neither FF MMO is alt friendly in the slightest.)

This game doesn't requires alts....so the fact people have alts is their own fault really and there is an option not to have them and most people who are not-RPers don't have them.

I have two alts and I've beaten HW twice....took me about two weeks for my alt and now I am working on my third alt. It's not difficult once you know how to do everything.

 

I think part of the contention in this is that it's still a time-sink. Those two+ weeks you spent leveling and going through content again could have been spent RPing or doing other things, etc. I haven't seen anyone say that the game was hard to play for difficulty, but rather, hard to play knowing that the time could have been used elsewhere, possibly more effectively in their opinions.

 

Whether or not this is actually going to change for 4.0 in the way people would like, we'll have to see then. Speculating now could either make an unreasonable expectation, or a complete lack of one.

[Addison]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14.

 

From what I've read, I've seen the exact opposite. I'm not seeing these new(er) people complaining about doing the MSQ, but rather the veterans complaining that they have to repeat it on an alt. (Completely forgetting the fact that neither FF MMO is alt friendly in the slightest.)

This game doesn't requires alts....so the fact people have alts is their own fault really and there is an option not to have them and most people who are not-RPers don't have them.

I have two alts and I've beaten HW twice....took me about two weeks for my alt and now I am working on my third alt. It's not difficult once you know how to do everything.

 

I think part of the contention in this is that it's still a time-sink. Those two+ weeks you spent leveling and going through content again could have been spent RPing or doing other things, etc. I haven't seen anyone say that the game was hard to play for difficulty, but rather, hard to play knowing that the time could have been used elsewhere, possibly more effectively in their opinions.

 

That pretty much can be said about MMOs in general, can't it?

 

I mean, if you roll an alt on any MMO, you're still starting at the bottom of the barrel. Even if the game is a faceroll, you're still taking time out to do something to get that toon ready for whatever you have planned for it.

 

I'll use EQ2 as an example, since I know the mechanics of that game better than say World of Warcraft.

 

If I were to roll a new alt on EQ2 (without buying a "heroic character," which starts at level 90 and in my opinion a colossal waste of money), I'd start at level 1 with no gear, no fame. Nothing. Because I played EQ2 for so long and followed the development closely, I could easily get a character to level 100 and 320 AAs (if you played FFXI, think of it as Merit Points and just roll with it) in the span of a weekend. Two weekends if it wasn't double EXP.

 

That's time I could've effectively used for something else. Anything else. Would I like to have been RPing during that time? Sure. But I also wanted an inquisitor in my arsenal, and unless I wanted to spend 40 bucks to buy one leveled most of the way for me, I just had to suck it up and deal with the tedious time sink of leveling that I've done a thousand times across multiple toons beforehand. It sucked, sure. But that's the nature of the beast.

 

And in that game, I couldn't have level 100 on every class on one character. Or level 100 of every crafter on one character. You were forced to re-roll a new character (or in the case of crafting, wipe all your progress and start over again. And who the hell would do THAT?)

 

So I really don't see that side of the argument. This is an MMO. MMOs are full of time sinks. That's how SE makes their money to continue funding development for this ever changing game.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Meh, I don't mind gated content, within reason. The story I feel should be, but things such as access to classes/races etc should not.

 

As for the repetition of having to do it all again on an alt? A) I don't need one, I can do everything I need on Nako both RP and content. B) I would still be doing the same grinding/questing I did in any other MMO... so no change there.

[LiadansWhisper]

Someone who played WoW correct me if I'm wrong (I never did).

 

...did WoW expansions require progression on every character to access new areas like the current system in FFXIV? Or was that progression unlocked account-wide as long as one character existed that could get to a new area?

 

I can and DO understand the gripes about having to chug through the story again for alts. There's a reason mine are below level 10 for the most part. One of the consequences of FFXIV being designed as a "your one character can do everything!" game is that it's extremely alt-unfriendly. SE looks to hopefully be changing that at least starting from now.

 

 

Off-topic side-note: We also haven't even gotten 3.1 yet. Let's uh...try to hold off potential anger at 4.0 which is probably 2+ years away?

 

Nope.  Nope, nope, nope.

 

In most cases, every area is open from the day the expansion drops, and you just have to choose where you want to go (considering character level, of course).  If a zone requires an unlock, it's normally an extremely brief set of quests that must be completed by all characters, and it's an endgame zone (i.e. Timeless Isle, Taanan Jungle).

 

If you're talking about raid instances, attunements haven't really been a thing since BC, but there was a quasi-attunement in MoP for Terrace of Endless Spring that required you to clear Heart of Fear before you could enter the instance.  The bitching was amazing.

[LiadansWhisper]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14. The whole "Marketing ploy" thing is total BS because content was always locked, even in 2.x, if you weren't at a certain point in the story. I play this game for the story and lore...I am an RPer and I am an FF fan who likes the game aspect of...this game >>

So yeah....When I saw this news, I was super disappointed. I liked that FF14 set itself apart with it's own rules and it made sense! I don't get why RPers are mad about not being able to skip past the story...wouldn't you want to know the lore that you learn through everything?

 

Okay, no one is saying that it has to be like WoW, but you really do need to allow for people who play the game differently from you.  Not everyone is into the story.  Not everyone is into the dungeons.  Not everyone is into the raiding.  Why is it okay to be into the story and not into dungeons or raiding, but not okay to be into dungeons and raiding but really not want to be gated by a continuing story?

 

I really don't get it, and I actually like the story.

[Flickering Ember]

I was going to post this earlier but got distracted with making some other points.

Fortunately some of the other members brought it up.

If you read the source from where this was addressed carefully then it sounds pretty clear that the story will be a continuation of the story we already have, rather than being something completely 100% new with each expansion.

They talk about adding an in game summary people can read if they don't want to do the old MSQs so it seems likely that the story will be created the same, just with the added addition to read cliff notes.

[Oli!]

This whole thing annoys me. FF14 shouldn't be like WoW where people assume the story isn't everything...it's kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's really obvious the ones complaining were the ones who joined super late and most likely left WoW for FF14. The whole "Marketing ploy" thing is total BS because content was always locked, even in 2.x, if you weren't at a certain point in the story. I play this game for the story and lore...I am an RPer and I am an FF fan who likes the game aspect of...this game >>

So yeah....When I saw this news, I was super disappointed. I liked that FF14 set itself apart with it's own rules and it made sense! I don't get why RPers are mad about not being able to skip past the story...wouldn't you want to know the lore that you learn through everything?

 

 

The difference is that they're not saying "now no one can play the story," they're just saying that "you don't have to play the story if you don't want to."

 

Those that still want to play the story can play the story. Those that don't want to, won't.

 

Player Choice makes video games better. There is no way that more Player Choice can make a game bad.

[Warren Castille]

"Okay, this is going to be an easy fight. Remember how you had to watch the walls on Ravana? Well you just need to-"

 

"I never did Ravana, I'm new and FATE burned to level 70."

 

"Oh... Well, remember how you needed to kill the orbs during the Nidhogg f-"

 

"Nope!"

 

"...okay, have you done-"

 

"I haven't fought anything since Steps of Faith, please explain every mechanic to me without using any recycled mechanics as a reference, because there's no unified pool of experience now."

 

This has been Worst Case Scenario, brought to you by Strawman Productions.

 

Everyone having done the same stuff is helpful.