Debates are not arguments

[Seriphyn]

Big preface in stating that the below references no specific event in particular, or an even recent one at that. It's just a trend I've noticed!

 

 

Person A: I don't think you can roleplay this.

Person B: Actually, this lore reference says you can.

Person A: Hm, is that so? Upon reading it, I don't think you are totally correct, for it says this in that particular section.

Person B: You have a point, and maybe if people were reasonable about it, it could be done.

Person A: Perhaps, but I think you might be misconstruing what the lore refe-

Person C: GUISE PLS STOP I AM SO UNCOMFORTABLE WHY ARE YOU ARGUING I AM LEAVING THIS LS SO TOXIC

 

So, there are some among us who really like to discuss lore and proscribe a conclusion based on what is extrapolated and debated. This is basically the essence of any academic debate; an adversarial but non-hostile clash of views with references in the pursuit of a final conclusion. Not everyone is going to reach the same conclusion, so it is acceptable to just agree to disagree. In the context of FFXIV lore discussion, the conclusions basically amount to "this can be roleplayed" and "this cannot be roleplayed", as well as variations between those two ends. Naturally, people who roleplay X are going to be disconcerted when the discussion they observe concludes that X "cannot be roleplayed".

 

Those of us who are relatively strict about the lore and proscribe judgement to roleplay could be said to be divided into two camps; they will not RP with your bending/breaking character, or they will RP with your bending/breaking character. Despite my verboseness with lore discussion, I am actually in the latter camp. I will RP with mostly everyone because I freaking love this game and its community. My character will just react accordingly to whenever your character drops a lorebomb.

 

This is an important aspect of those who like to engage in academic debates that those who do not fail to understand. Our argumentative nature enjoy debates because it is a mental exercise that we intellectually invest ourselves into for stimulation, but it is not personal. When we proscribe negative judgements to roleplay, it is not a personal attack. I am not going to say this is the case for everyone, but I merely seek to defend those who are labeled perhaps unfairly as 'lore nazis'. Of course, there are those who proscribe roleplay judgments because they want to impose their view or they're just arrogant pricks.

 

So, going back to the original example, I have seen this happen at least three times in large public linkshells. The question that emerges from these instances is the following...

 

[align=center]1) Should participants in the lore debate shift to a private conversation?[/align]

[align=center]OR[/align]

[align=center]2) Should observers who are uncomfortable tolerate the lore debate?[/align]

 

There are points that can be argued in favour of both sides, but I personally am going to argue vehemently against number 1. In my opinion, that basically amounts to censoring based on "being offended", something I am staunchly against on principle. Outsiders to an event effectively find their feelings hurt because of the actions of a pair or group of individuals who are having fun and otherwise oblivious to the concept what they doing is apparently "offensive". It becomes a question of free speech, and this is where I will cease arguing this particular point, lest it become dicey.

 

On the other hand, this might also be a case of "pick your battles". In the name of community harmony, surely not upsetting members of the group is more important than arguing the lore of a make-believe world? What use is there politicizing the dynamics of an online community that's sole purpose of existing is to have fun? In real-life, we fight for freedom and democracy, but in FFXIV RP, we're here solely to play house with our pretend characters. Why get so indignant about issues that not even remotely have the same impact as some issue do in reality?

 

Nonetheless, it is a debate (not argument!) worth having, so go!

[Ciel]

One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.

[Verranicus]

One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.

The point of a forum is debate and discussion.

[Hihimi]

One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.

As a very sensitive person, I agree. Even if you don't think it'll make people uncomfortable, it may clog up other people's chat boxes if you go on too long or get in too deep. It's better to leave public, all-inclusive conversations public and private, sensitive subjects private.

[Faye]

I believe it's a compromise. The more "sensitive" folk need to try to toughen up and realize that if the topic is a relatively harmless one (aka not religion or real world politics) and if no personal insults are being thrown around, it's probably an okay discussion. On the other hand, debaters need to realize when they're annoying everyone else and dial it back a notch or take it to private messages when others begin to complain.

[Gone.]

There's also a difference between healthy discussion and typically heated debate, the latter of which most don't want or need while they're simply trying to relax, more so when it involves such a personal subject.

 

Have a little tact and be sensitive to those around you. Lore of all things isn't worth upsetting people over.

[Ciel]

One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.

The point of a forum is debate and discussion.

 

You completely missed the point of what I was saying. I was saying on the matter of public debate in things like a LS, it should be taken to private.  I never said not to post debates on a forum.  Seraphyn was looking for opinions, so I gave mine.

[Kage]

One person's debate is another person's argument. Take it to a private conversation.

The point of a forum is debate and discussion.

When it happens in linkshells, they're not forums.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

While I think debates are fine in linkshells, if kept civil, it's ultimately up to the person if they want to see it or not. If you don't feel comfortable in the linkshell and it doesn't look like it's going to improve, why bother staying in it? The game is meant to be fun. If there's something making it not-fun, then either try to fix it or remove it.

[Kage]

You can avoid these types of "uncomfortable" debates... or usually arguments on forums. You can't with linkshells. Two(?) people basically taking their argument into a linkshell means the other 100ish people are forced to look at that linkshell. Hiding that linkshell means you hide the other 100 people who may be trying to speak with you.

 

Two peoples' debate or argument should not intrude on 100 other people.

[Seriphyn]

So, from our initial musings, it seems the first point reminds me of a conversation I had with a comedian regarding offensive comedy.

 

If you're going to a comedy show, you should expect to hear absolutely anything and not get offended by it. You're heading into something you know full well may stray into territory you're not comfortable with. On that, he was able to justify using offensive jokes. However, he strongly discouraged the idea about making offensive jokes outside of a show. People are not expecting it, cannot be expected to expect it, and so on. 

 

This same principle, then, can be applied to the argument regarding lore debates in public linkshells.

[Kage]

I mean... you COULD make a lore debating Linkshell :>

 

But I figure those type of discussions, in which you want public commentary, are better suited for forums such as this.

 

People are not forced to see the threads, etc and can remove themselves without extricating themselves from everyone who use the forums

[Hihimi]

So, from our initial musings, it seems the first point reminds me of a conversation I had with a comedian regarding offensive comedy.

 

If you're going to a comedy show, you should expect to hear absolutely anything and not get offended by it. You're heading into something you know full well may stray into territory you're not comfortable with. On that, he was able to justify using offensive jokes. However, he strongly discouraged the idea about making offensive jokes outside of a show. People are not expecting it, cannot be expected to expect it, and so on. 

 

This same principle, then, can be applied to the argument regarding lore debates in public linkshells.

Yes, exactly! Public spaces are meant for harmonious interactions. Private ones can be as raunchy, insulting, or in this case, heated, as you need them to be. If three or more people want to debate it's best to form a party and debate that way, not to force it on the 100+ people in a large linkshell you just so happen to share. It's like friends debating in the middle of a mall--not everyone wants to see it, and the managers will typically tell you you're distracting the pedestrians and ask you to leave.

[Flashhelix]

Why join an LS or other kind of public forum for communication if you're going to vehemently discourage any kind of communication that isn't the tone you want it to be? People over-dramatize these kinds of things. Two people arguing in a public LS isn't ruining other conversations, and having to see it isn't the end of the world. It's text on a screen, you can still converse with other people wholly independent of another conversation, it's not like verbal communication where you can be drowned out.

[Gone.]

It is ruining other conversations, though, because the entire scenario engulfs the spotlight and shuts everything else out. :\

[industrythirteen]

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

― Harlan Ellison

 

Perhaps this is a bit of spherical cow, but in my opinion, the debate and discussion remains in the realm of polite if no one resorts to character assassination, general name calling, or belittlement, and if the opinions shared are debated on their merits, with as few logical fallacies in play as possible. Also, I am of the opinion that the best method to dispel ignorance on any subject is through discussion, and the sharing of experiences, with the understanding that the source material will be passed through personal filters of those debating.

 

So, I think it is inevitable that debates will happen, and as so long as those debates remain polite, an argument will not follow. However, I can't really be sure of much. So, if it becomes an argument, then I would ask that those participating in the argument move on.

[Flashhelix]

It is ruining other conversations, though, because the entire scenario engulfs the spotlight and shuts everything else out. :\

 

How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.

[Kellach Woods]

the day people will stop confusing debate with passive-aggressive sniping maybe.

[Seriphyn]

Great points on both sides. I am somewhat of an open-ended person; I see one argument in favour of general sensitivity, and am convinced, but then I see someone in favour of minimal censoring, and am convinced in that direction instead!

 

My final answer would be in favour of a balance, that being said. All of life is a balance between two extremes, but it is far more stimulating to see people's viewpoints!

 

Please don't get too invested in it all though, yeah? We're not going to change people's minds, so it'd be better for everyone if we read differing opinions, put it through our mental funnel, and learnt from them 

[Erik Mynhier]

“You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant.”

― Harlan Ellison

 

Ellison is my Hero....

 

On topic, while I feel personally very strong that confrontation is a good thing and that people who are, and forgive the term, "sensitive" need to toughen up, I think it is best handled in Tells/PMs. The reason for that is because this game has all walks of life in it. When I get the itch to argue or pick at someone I make myself remember that not everyone playing with me is a 35 year old male combat vet with two kids. You all are not my circle of normal friends, of whom I am the only one that plays. Some of you are young, very young, Some are vets, but some are not, in short are life experiences are different.

 

Now would I feel comfortable in a bar, debating another 30-something vet about stuff in a vocal and heated way? You bet, but would I feel comfortable doing that to a high school kid? No, so since we are all pretty good at keeping our rls out of the game, I have no idea who I'm arguing with or even who's listening.

[K'nahli]

Frankly, people should understand that other people are going to have conflicting views and that it is not a personal attack on their methods in most cases. If it's difficult to not be offended then all it takes is to stop reading the shell for a while. It doesn't take a lot of restraint.

 

Having said that, you're always... always going to have touchy people or those kinds of people whom come off as very blunt and/or opinionated and often have their words taken the wrong way. So really, it should be a compromise. If there's no way to publicly involve others whom may like to read and contribute without hurting another's feelings, then just show some consideration move the topic elsewhere. It's not ideal but at the end of the day you're upsetting someone.

 

Suck it up the same way you wished that they had when it came to dealing with your conversation.

[Maril]

Well there are a share of people who just do not like being in linkshells but they end up in them anyways. I've seen people leave linkshells over incredibly little. As for misunderstanding a debate as being an argument, I see that all the time. I think that the internet should have a debate font and a sarcasm font added in everywhere. Often the moment someone says they do not acknowledge something volatile saay.. Fantasia, whitemages/blackmages, etc in their RP is where sometimes things blow up because other people take it as them looking down on their RP, which is not a nice feeling granted, but actually it's more an expression of style/preference and not necessarily a statement of how everyone else's RP sucks (Though the latter can occur because people)

 

When people talk lore things can get geeky/nerdy real fast, and that can sometimes be annoying to watch, but honestly unless the people talking are entirely ignoring people contributing to the debate, or it gets too passive-aggressive hostile, then I personally wouldn't ask someone to take it to private - unless the linkshells rules specifically stated that the purpose isn't do discuss lore or whatever have you that might lead people to paragraph-chat. 

If it's blocking all other communication I would maybe suggest it, but I find that the whole "no one else can get a word in" is mainly just because people go silent when something like that goes on. I've not seen a debate yet where the chat scrolled so fast others couldn't talk also, that only really happens at big RP events. 

 

I find discussion of lore to be a part of the RP world as a whole so, it only seems natural that such might occur in a linkshell. I wouldn't ever discuss it in shout chat for example.. Because it's then not relevant to a whole lot of other people. Where as in an rp linkshell it's more on topic if you would.

 

If people do not want to see big hunks of OOC text, they can always make a tab that filters the linkshell out, or temporarily filter it out of whatever tab they're using. It's an easy fix. Even for FC chat you can do that. 

 

*puts two gil in a hat*

[Delilah Scythewood]

My view on the whole matter is simple and I just had a similar discussion with someone from my FC. It can be solved as easily as this:

 

Things like LS's and FC chat and other similar mediums are public chats. They are shared by people other then yourself and the person you happen to be debating with. Yes there are over sensitive people, but that aside it also comes down to those involved in the debate to acknowledge that if the people in channel are getting uncomfortable or don't care for it it becomes as easy as democracy if enough people don't like it. Just like you wouldn't like someone infringing upon you with things or topics that make you uncomfortable, don't do that to other people in the name of having a debate. It takes less then two clicks to send you and whoever else involved into a party, Skype call, whispers, etc. 

 

There. Issue solved.

[Gone.]

How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.

 

Because negative attitudes have this tendency to overpower everything else in the room, textual or no. It's also incredibly difficult to follow more than one conversation in something like an LS due to the lack of line-by-line color segregation.

 

Maybe you've never been in this situation before, but trust me, this is exactly how it happens and it's not a good thing in the slightest.

[Tiergan]

If the debate is 100% civil - I personally think it's fine (and actually super informative!) to have lore debates whether they be here on the forums or in a linkshell.

 

I learned so much stuff just from watching some of the lore-hounds on this forum chat it up and debate with one another over different details. The only time I get uncomfortable is when it's very obviously getting super heated and both sides are taking things way more personally than they should be for a talk over the structure and culture of an imaginary fantasy world. If insults and snide, passive-aggressive remarks are getting tossed around, or folks are taking an extremely "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, BRUH" approach with lore - I feel like it's doing more harm than good.