discussion Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead

[Oli!]

 

 

 

Oh God, if it turns out to be a typo from 300 I'm gonna... throw something.

 

 

Wouldn't mean as much as would be desired unless the "surviving 10" is supposed to be "surviving 100."

 

That'll still be a wrench in the works for many otherwise.

[Kilieit]

Still leaves more wiggle-room for people to have quit / been honourably discharged due to injury / etc in the wake of the Final Chorus - it means it's possible for people to have been actively serving dragoons, just that they now have to find a way for their story to make it so they aren't any longer.

 

The reason I'm so un-fond of this decision is because a couple of my good friends are faced with the decision of either:

 

a) flat out going against the lore, which they've tried very hard to adhere to up 'til now, from here on out; or,

 

b) retconning every piece of RP they've done about their character being a dragoon... which is most of what they've done in the last 2 years. In other words, scrap the character, notify all the character's friends that they never existed, and reroll them. I'm not talking about people whose characters have a dragoon job "because they think it's cool" (I'm sure these people exist, but I've not met any) - I'm talking about people whose character's central identity is being Ishgardian, being a dragoon, and serving Ishgard by being a dragoon.

 

At least if there's 300 and not 30, there's a tiny bit more room for there to be no need for retcons in people's RP - just changes going forward. It's much more workable from an RP continuity standpoint.

[Kellach Woods]

Lest ye forget, you have a very specific mention that a certain moogle used to do the same shit a Dragoon did.

 

So uh, yeah.

[Virella]

This is an odd decision, and I'm curious to see if it stands once Koji comments on the various errors present in the book.

 

Oh God, if it turns out to be a typo from 300 I'm gonna... throw something.

 

Probably a party for my poor dragoon friends?

The spelling errors are really just terrible

 

I still want to know what a Monk temple seolc-house is supposed to be :l Because I'm Dutch I was like "Huuuh, I don't know this word." So I've poked my English native martial art friend (cuz she's my go to for like Monk stuff), and she just goes "Uuuuuuh?" and then my FC proceeded to sit there and go "UUUUH?"

 

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Gerel Kha]

"Seolc" is apparently another word for "silk." Huh. Anyway, I'm not really gonna weigh in on the Dragoon revelations--most of the points I would've addressed/added have been stated. I'll just hope there's clarifications and-or revisions due to localization errors.

[AlionLucada]

Instead of being a Dragoon, be a soldier of Ishgard who skillfully uses a lance. You can give your characters pretty much the same skills and background for a lot of the Classes/Jobs without actually using the name and treading dangerous canonical ground.

 

It's just safer to avoid putting your characters into any story based organizations, and I'm surprised (and also not) that some people continue to be surprised by things like this.

[Momo]

I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.

 

There are risks to choosing a job like this one, but in the end, if all the Dragoon RPers got together and decided a way in which they would all like to continue with some sort of universal community canon, I don't see anyone arguing to heavily against it.

 

Things to note:

~Dragoon soulstones are from the Sixth Astral Era, this fact being because the founding of Ishgard, and the settling of Elezen in Coerthas took place during this period of time. 

 

~Soulstones, and the instilling of aether and the nuances of the self into crystal, have been around since the Rise of the Allagan Empire, and have never diminished since then even if the methods have been lost and recovered or changed in some way.

 

As has been mentioned, it doesn't say there is a limit to the amount of DRG soulstones, and in the case of the WoL themselves, it was received by someone who was allowed to keep the one they used and pass it on. So 30 doesn't limit much outside of the official office within Ishgard.  

 

 

Sorry to say, but having been a summoner for some time now, and a Paladin before that, Dragoons will simply have to go our way, and take up a wayward soulstone from chance or by self-assumed fate, to then take on the job which they were working towards as a Lancer. It isn't always glamorous, or well accepted by everyone, but it also isn't against lore, just unlikely more than anything. Do what you want, within reason!

[Virella]

"Seolc" is apparently another word for "silk." Huh. Anyway, I'm not really gonna weigh in on the Dragoon revelations--most of the points I would've addressed/added have been stated. I'll just hope there's clarifications and-or revisions due to localization errors.

I LOVE YOU

[Caspar]

I doubt this is the case, but I hope this serves as a lesson for people who feel the need to RP something exclusive and rare in a games canon. If you can't come up with something interesting without slapping on a "oh also they're a member of a super exclusive and secretive order and they kill god beasts" you need to bone up on your RP 101.

 

I feel the same way about seeing people who RP Garleans of such high ranks that they'd be rubbing elbows with the likes of Gaius and Nael or ruling over their own castrum. Think small and nuanced, not grand and braggy when it comes to your characters.

The same logic could be applied to the improbably numerous Garlean spies.

 

Ultimately, what players want to do is use the concept that they feel best about making a story framework in. If that is mundane or distinctive, so much the better. There is no inherent value in either. The only thing you can do is hedge your bets and be ready to retcon if something does fly your way. Exclusivity may in some cases make it more likely, but it means little more than that.

 

Also lol @ the Temple Cyclas being essentially Ripple-friendly cloth. It's not Sathiphorosia Beetle leg-muscle thread, but still reminds me of Jojo quite a bit.

[V'aleera]

I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.

The lore book says that Nunh are leaders in Seeker tribes as a standard in direct contradiction to the original lore post.

 

It also literally reverses Keeper naming conventions.

[Aden Dellebecque]

I went through the trouble of finding a player character teacher who had an established background as a Dragoon, and went through that RP. It was always my intent to only play a capital D Dragoon if I could manage to do that legwork--and I did. That's that.

 

If this had been said for any other job with a thriving RP community around it, I would tell them the same--find a way around it. If people refuse to RP with you because you are continuing the RP you've been doing for months or years, it's their loss.

 

I'll personally be operating under the "active service" theory, because thirty is an absolutely unsustainable number. It would mean Ishgard was always one really bad morning in the chow hall away from the death of the order.

[Caspar]

"Seolc" is apparently another word for "silk." Huh. Anyway, I'm not really gonna weigh in on the Dragoon revelations--most of the points I would've addressed/added have been stated. I'll just hope there's clarifications and-or revisions due to localization errors.

Sheesh, who came up with that term, an Ixali?

I wonder how many other errors will be in the Lore book. It may not be as ironclad of a source as we'd hoped.

[Momo]

I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.

The lore book says that Nunh are leaders in Seeker tribes as a standard in direct contradiction to the original lore post.

 

It also literally reverses Keeper naming conventions.

 

The reversed naming convention is likely because of the Japanese>>English translation, and the Nuhn was probably just a copy mistake. That in no way, invalidates most of the lore in the book. I wouldn't use established facts like these, which are clearly just little mistakes, to discount everything else. 30 is low yes, but Dragoons have great abilities beyond that of many other Knights. And from what we could see, Dragoons weren't always or even majorly, the battlers of Dragons in the Dragonsong War CSs we have.

 

I think that SE is deliberately trying to keep them capped low, so that the WoL as a DRG and Estinien seem more exceptional. Not to mention, with their skill at killing dragons, it is possible, they were only rolled out at moments of great need, or as in the case of Estinien, they have their own orders or do tasks as they deem necessary. I didn't do the DRG quests myself, but suffice it to say, it seems like they weren't all that telling about the actual state of the order.

[V'aleera]

I'm not trying to invalidate the book, I'm just pointing out some egregious errors that need to be addressed.

 

This feels like the Warcraft UVG all over again.

[Sig]

...Call me a heretic, but FFXIV lore, considering its extreme ambiguity and after-the-fact implementation, is meant to be bent to facilitate tasteful roleplay and story telling.

 

Dragoons should not allow a two sentence excerpt from a recently published lore book destroy characters and limit RP. 

 

This isn't a federal statute enacted by congress.  It's the product of one or two members of the FFXIV "lore team."

 

Bend that lore with impunity.

[Flashhelix]

...Call me a heretic, but FFXIV lore, considering its extreme ambiguity and after-the-fact implementation, is meant to be bent to facilitate tasteful roleplay and story telling.

 

Dragoons should not allow a two sentence excerpt from a recently published lore book destroy characters and limit RP. 

 

This isn't a federal statute enacted by congress.  It's the product of one or two members of the FFXIV "lore team."

 

Bend that lore with impunity.

 

p. much this, SE certainly isn't above bending or contradicting their own lore, I don't see why others can't

[AlionLucada]

Just don't be surprised if people call you out on it. ICly of course.

[Verad]

Just don't be surprised if people call you out on it. ICly of course.

 

Will you?

[Hyrist]

Here's my takeaway:

 

The Ishgardian Order of the Dragoon's number 10.

 

Adventures, however, have been emulating and replicating skills and appearances from ancient martial arts since 1.xx, and that is canon.

 

You need look no further than Rowenas employees to see the validity of that - their is story behind their replicas that is not tied exclusively for the warrior of light. After all, if the WoL was Rowena's only customer, she would not sell these products.

 

So the work around on this attempted Lore-lock is that, as always, Elite Adventurers are the exception to the rule, and have always been. They exist, they are referenced, most specifically they're referenced in the Triad storyline, in which Krile acknowledges herself that the Warrior of Light is often friends with adventurers also gifted with the Echo.

 

 

Trying to pull logic from a  very specif statement like this to lock down or lock out anyone who wishes to play else-wise, probably isn't a wise roleplay practice. Playing an Ishgardian Dragoon was always looked at a similar to playing an out and Public White or Black Mage anyways - the fact that there is a specific number currently in the origin matters little in this regard comparatively.

 

People have, and will continue to, lore-bend, both elegantly and horribly. The more a player or a community becomes hyper-adherent to lore, especially specific points like this, the more that said player or community suffers for it, as it make the environment become less and less welcoming to new blood, which, frankly, keeps the community alive.

 

So no, Dragoons be Dragoons. This changes little in regards to the overall atmosphere of the Job usage in the actual RP environment. Those who were specifically playing Ishgardian Dragoons were pretty low in number compared to Adventurers who were simulating Dragoon combat arts through the same 'peer teaching' methods that have loopholed every other job in existence.

 

Try not to take things too seriously, you'll suck the fun out of things for yourselves and others.

[Virella]

Here's my takeaway:

 

The Ishgardian Order of the Dragoon's number 10.

 

Adventures, however, have been emulating and replicating skills and appearances from ancient martial arts since 1.xx, and that is canon.

Okay, provide proof of Ishgardian Dragoons fighting style existing out of Ishgard, WoL snowflake excluded. Because lets be honest, using the WoL as an excuse for a PC to be a Dragoon in this case... is rather arrogant and absurd.

[Teadrinker]

Try not to take things too seriously, you'll suck the fun out of things for yourselves and others.

 

Eh, I can call it like it is. Existing active Dragoon RPers got retconned out of existence.

 

Will I still RP with them?

 

Yep.

 

:thumbsup:

[Hyrist]

Okay, provide proof of Ishgardian Dragoons fighting style existing out of Ishgard, WoL snowflake excluded. Because lets be honest, using the WoL as an excuse for a PC to be a Dragoon in this case... is rather arrogant and absurd.

 

Dragoon storyline 50-60:

 

 

 

Heustienne, she leaves the order to fight dragons her own way. This does not restrict her to Ishgardian lands.

 

 

That's not including any future "Retired Azure Dragoon" appearances.

 

Also, never used WoL as an excuse. Read again. Someone has to be Rowena's target market for weapons and armor not only exclusive to Dragoon usage, but tailored specifically for their use and image. WoL was merely the inspiration for it.

 

The reason you don't see it in action is because SE keeps the information and specifics about "Elite Adventurers" (Their pseudonym for player characters) intentionally vague. They're supposed to be rare even among adventurers. And such things like the duplication of skillsets from ancient practices, pretty much is limited to those elites.

 

But then again, this is taking all this far too seriously for anyone actually out there roleplaying to care about. As stated above, in spite of what people whisper behind their hands and discuss on forums, most people just roll with it.

[Valence]

There are bound to be more than 30 soulstones for Dragoons. The role of Dragoons in Ishgard is brutal with likely a pretty rough mortality rate over the 1000 years of war. So what happend to those soulstones of past Dragoons that were killed in action? It would be impossible to gather all of the fallen soulstones. You have these fighters who jump great heights to battle dragons in the air. You have a city that is perched over a vast chasm where fights up against the city walls didn't seem that uncommon. There is tons of room for past stones to be lost so there has to be a way to recreate them.

 

Not only that you have the training of new Dragoons. First you start as a lancer of course and work your way up but what happens when you are first given a soulstone? It becomes training back from start to learn the Dragoon ways. I fail to believe that any of the Dragoons didn't have a rough time learning how to jump and harness that power to a precise point. Yes you have that past knowledge and perhaps know how but it's not going to be like turning on a light switch.

 

It's going to take any new Dragoon a bit to adjust to the soulstone and different fighting style before they are worthy of being titled as Dragoons and put into service.

 

As I said before, it's not much different than for WhM and BLM nd jobs like that. Your reasons are perfectly valid to me in terms of lore.

 

A conjurer can perfectly stumble on an old amdapori soulstone for whatever reason, even if it seems highly unlikely.

 

Otherwise yes. It's as special snowflaky as claiming to be part of the few padjali WhM and whatnot. Retired DRG or not.

[Eses Fafa]

One, you mentioned active duty. That doesn't mean Dragoons have stopped being a thing.

 

Second, they can still actively claim representation of the Order even if they were laid off.

 

Besides, FF14's roleplay is more fun if you bend the rules a little bit, which is weird to say considering I come from Argent Dawn in WoW, which jumps at any opportunity to shame any lorebreaking.

[Val]

I don't think it really matters all that much in the long run. As people said, they can RP however they want and most people will probably continue to do so regardless of the lore. I'm sure a few things will need to be changed on a per-character basis, but overall I agree with the rest. Just say you left the order or so on and so forth.

 

Truth be told, in this game, you almost have to RP as some sort of special snowflake-y thing in order to RP any of the jobs. They're all--if not most--built around the idea of being some incredibly rare, powerful occurrence. Some people follow that, others just prefer to avoid it altogether.

 

I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trained :thumbsup: