discussion Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead

[Teadrinker]

Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.

 

 

Ah, but therein lies the rub.

 

Does one keep Dragoon skills once they part with the Soulstone or do they go back to being a Lancer?

 

.....

 

The answer is Lancer but if someone wanted to RP it that way I'd probably shrug and look the other way as well.

 

Still stand by what I said on page 1 though. I think forcing people who have sunk months or years into RPing an Ishgardian dragoon, to the extent that removing that part of the character would involve retconning those months/years of roleplay to have never happened and rerolling the character completely, to give it up because the lore writers decided to arbitrarily stick a really low number on the job is... harsh. There are doable workarounds for the RP community; I think we should use them.

 

Pretty much this.

 

It IS lorebreaking.

 

I'll be looking the other way though.

[S'imba]

What's your stop a dragoon from going heretic and running off with a soulstone? The holy see isn't omnipotent or all seeing. Soulstones are about the size of a quarter. There's absolutely no way the they can manage to control things that closely. Unless the holy see can wave their hand and summon them back.

[dreadWolf]

Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.

 

 

Ah, but therein lies the rub.

 

Does one keep Dragoon skills once they part with the Soulstone or do they go back to being a Lancer?

 

.....

 

The answer is Lancer but if someone wanted to RP it that way I'd probably shrug and look the other way as well.

 

 

 

If that were the case, though, every trainer NPC would become a 'gladiator' or 'marauder' after parting with their soulstone but we see that's clearly not the case. They retain their Job specific skills.

[Warren Castille]

Not every trainer gives you their specific soulstone.

[Caspar]

I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily" when that was obviously not the case considering that there are only about 30 in service at any one time and that was considered sufficient to get by through all those years of war up until the outright invasion at the climax which you're supposed to at least pretend to imagine was of a much larger scale than that presented in game - something more in line with that of the CGI I am sure.

"Freaking out" is an uncharitably strong way to put it, but it is probably shocking to a lot of players given that Square's been vague about the numbers up until now. It could legitimately be a tiny army in which case I wonder why there isn't full mobilization, with a radically different social structure within Ishgard, but at least under the condition of having a small military/population, it makes sense to have a tiny elite group as well.

 

Overall though, the way I see it is that if you're going to be intense about lore adherence, the same rules should apply to everyone, not just players who are fortunate enough to be well liked or play something favored by the majority. If the lore adherence is leading you towards not accepting characters you love and pushing you away from players you enjoy cooperating with, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your attitude towards the lore. Maybe some flexibility is in order, so that you can let things like this slide.

[Teadrinker]

Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.

 

 

Ah, but therein lies the rub.

 

Does one keep Dragoon skills once they part with the Soulstone or do they go back to being a Lancer?

 

.....

 

The answer is Lancer but if someone wanted to RP it that way I'd probably shrug and look the other way as well.

 

 

 

If that were the case, though, every trainer NPC would become a 'gladiator' or 'marauder' after parting with their soulstone but we see that's clearly not the case. They retain their Job specific skills.

 

That starts boiling down into the unique lore of seperate jobs and would be a massive segway off topic.

[Warren Castille]

I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily" when that was obviously not the case considering that there are only about 30 in service at any one time and that was considered sufficient to get by through all those years of war up until the outright invasion at the climax which you're supposed to at least pretend to imagine was of a much larger scale than that presented in game - something more in line with that of the CGI I am sure.

"Freaking out" is an uncharitably strong way to put it, but it is probably shocking to a lot of players given that Square's been vague about the numbers up until now. It could legitimately be a tiny army in which case I wonder why there isn't full mobilization, with a radically different social structure within Ishgard, but at least under the condition of having a small military/population, it makes sense to have a tiny elite group as well.

 

The way I see it overall is that if you're going to be intense about lore adherence, the same rules should apply to everyone, not just players who are fortunate enough to be well liked or play something favored by the majority. If the lore adherence is leading you towards not accepting characters you love and pushing you away from players you enjoy cooperating with, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your attitude towards the lore. Maybe some flexibility is in order, so that you can let things like this slide.

 

I like this. There's asking for lore because you want it and then there's asking for lore you hope validates headcanon. It's okay for it to be both, but less good for it to just be the second thing.

[Ciel]

I suppose part of my point was that, regardless of getting into the Order, a lot of people tried and failed to be accepted. They still had training toward being a Dragoon.  Call it a Lancer, effectively, if you wish, but there would have to be bodies readily available to backfill the ranks of Dragoons who've been killed or crippled in the line of duty. 

 

If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed.  Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic.  They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach.  This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.

 

I'm not saying to ignore the hard 30 of the Order, I'm not saying everyone gets a soul stone, but there are more people who have the training than the text would have us believe.  There are ways to work around it.

[Teadrinker]

If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed.  Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic.  They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach.  This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.

 

 

This is EXACTLY why Square Enix has massively dropped the ball by having this level of specificity just randomly for NO reason.

 

Now they are obligated to explain this.

 

"It is a very small, elite Order."  Could have sufficed.

[Melkire]

Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:

 

The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.

 

It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.

It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.

It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.

 

In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.

 

"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.

[Delilah Scythewood]

If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed.  Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic.  They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach.  This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.

This is EXACTLY why Square Enix has massively dropped the ball by having this level of specificity just randomly for NO reason.

 

Now they are obligated to explain this.

 

"It is a very small, elite Order."  Could have sufficed.

But...they didn't really drop the ball though? It's not for no reason, either. It's their lore and their story. They aren't obligated to do anything. People wanted lore and they got it. 

 

Mind you, I've never played DRG. I've never gotten LNC past 17 or 18 in the game. But even just what I've seen of the game and conext clues, DRGs were never meant to be a mass order of individuals. Considering the scope of the DSW, the fact that DRGs took a hit SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISING.

 

It's 30 DRGs. It's SE's story, not ours, we're just the players exploring it. They don't owe you, me, or anyone else jackshit. To think otherwise is just entitlement.

[Caspar]

Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:

 

The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.

 

It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.

It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.

It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.

 

In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.

 

"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.

So long as the Jump's nature remains something of an enigma, it's not strictly ruled out as something a player character with adequate potential couldn't learn, so this seems like an obvious solution for the more cosmopolitan dragoon. It may be more difficult for players who are inherently within the Order of Knights Dragoon and fight alongside the military.

[111]

Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:

 

The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.

 

It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.

It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.

It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.

 

In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.

 

"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.

 

 

Yeah I thought anyone who killed a Dragon was a Dragoon. The 30 are just like the cool kids club. 

 

I used Paladins before, but maybe Monetarists are a better example? There are only 6 rich people on the Syndicate, however you can be an incredibly rich noble in Uldah, with lots of power.

 

You can be an incredibly skilled dragoon with the soulstone who has killed a Dragon... but maybe you're not cool enough to be on the cool kids club. It's all politics really.

[Silmanos]

Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:

 

The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.

 

It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.

It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.

It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.

 

In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.

 

"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.

 

 

Yeah I thought anyone who killed a Dragon was a Dragoon. The 30 are just like the cool kids club. 

 

I used Paladins before, but maybe Monetarists are a better example? There are only 6 rich people on the Syndicate, however you can be an incredibly rich noble in Uldah, with lots of power.

 

You can be an incredibly skilled dragoon with the soulstone who has killed a Dragon... but maybe you're not cool enough to be on the cool kids club. It's all politics really.

 

There are two different types of 'dragoon'. You have a dragoon who is someone who has killed a dragon and then you have a Knight Dragoon which is someone who has received training from the Order and actually does the jumps.

[Verad]

Personally I wouldn't stop anyone from retconning if they felt the need.

 

But a heck of a lot can happen in a thousand-year-old city-state with a history that is one-third forgotten and one-third rewritten by authorities with a vested interest in the revision.

 

People will figure out something to keep playing, some people will fume about this, neither of them will play with each other (which was probably the case before this anyway), and things will move on without much change.

[Leggerless]

Look on the bright side, guys.

 

At least they didn't complete eliminate the possibility of being a dragoon outside of NPCs (looking at you, dragoons who just killed a dragon or two).

 

Whole situation reminds me of Star Wars and how the expanded universe went to Legends rather than Canon. Also reminds me a bit of New Testament overriding Old Testament.

 

Anyways. We'll carry on and you'll figure out loopholes to keep your role, albeit slightly reduced, to conform to new lore policy.

[Nero]

Being the pretentious git that I am, I just think it's kind of a foolishly arbitrary number to commit to unless you have every other factor set in relative stone, because it raises more questions than it answers.

 

Like during a slow day in the office, Koji Fox shouted at Oda-san from across the building, "Oda-san, how many Dragoons are there?" and fifteen minutes later, a voice in a hallway that sounds like Oda-san but can't be 100% confirmed to have been Oda-san shouted back "Uhhh.....like, thirty or something!"

 

"Yeah, but how many alive?"

 

"Ten! Ten's a cool number, let's go with ten!"

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Sounsyy]

The Order of the Knights Dragoon might be a shadow of what it once was, but that doesn't mean the dragoons are all gone. There are retired dragoons, as well as dragoons like those from the Convictory who have this to say:

 

Well' date=' if it isn't the great Warrior of Light herself! She who slew the dread wyrm Nidhogg, bringing an end to a thousand years of war - [i']and my very livelihood![/i] Well, go on then - strike me down and finish the job! Stab me right in the heart! I'll even lend you my spear, if you like! After all, I won't be bloody needing it!

 

Oh, and lest you worry, that business about me losing my livelihood couldn't have been further from the truth. In point of fact, peace is proving surprisingly lucrative! As our nation's ties with Hraesvelgr's brood have grown stronger and our interests in Dravania have begun to expand, we have seen a marked increase in the number of travelers on the road. Needless to say, said travelers require protection, which we are only too happy to provide. Granted, such work will not earn you a lordship like slaying a dragon might, but it pays well and is far less prone to end in incineration - which seems a reasonable enough compromise, all things considered.

 

As for being one of ten to two score highly elite knights of Ishgard, that's up to personal feelings on the lore. I know there've always been dragoon RPers and I'm certain there'll always be more out there. How one might go about playing a dragoon just might be different from what it once was.

[Oli!]

Not weighing in on anything else here, but it's worth noting that since the Convictory wasn't official, the Dragoons in it likely weren't either.

 

Which of course opens up a path for unofficial Dragoons as mentioned previously, but the actual order didn't have much relation.

[Teadrinker]

If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed.  Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic.  They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach.  This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.

This is EXACTLY why Square Enix has massively dropped the ball by having this level of specificity just randomly for NO reason.

 

Now they are obligated to explain this.

 

"It is a very small, elite Order."  Could have sufficed.

But...they didn't really drop the ball though? It's not for no reason, either. It's their lore and their story. They aren't obligated to do anything. People wanted lore and they got it. 

 

Mind you, I've never played DRG. I've never gotten LNC past 17 or 18 in the game. But even just what I've seen of the game and conext clues, DRGs were never meant to be a mass order of individuals. Considering the scope of the DSW, the fact that DRGs took a hit SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISING.

 

It's 30 DRGs. It's SE's story, not ours, we're just the players exploring it. They don't owe you, me, or anyone else jackshit. To think otherwise is just entitlement.

 

Square didn't write this way to punish people.

 

I don't know WHY they wrote this way, frankly. Hell, they can't even define Thancred and Minnie's relationship beyond "HerpDerp Rampaging Goobbue" but we're still supposed to feel sad or something about it.

 

I'm just saying that for a company has has a 6 year long habit for being vague as hell they certainly picked an obnoxiously problematic and odd time to be double digit number specific.

[Flashhelix]

I don't really think it's worth freaking out over.

 

If you want to RP a dragoon, you can find a good enough excuse.

 

If someone really uses the lorebook as an excuse to tell people they can't play dragoons then they're a lame fuck and probably not worth your time anyway.

 

The lorebook says they were down to 10 people in active service by the time the final battle with Nidhogg was over, it doesn't say anything about new dragoons after that or retired/inactive dragoons coming back, so really all you'd have to say (and you'd only really need to do this if you're dead-set on being an ACTIVE-SERVICE dragoon) is that your character was inactive at the time of the Dragonsong War's end and that's it.

[AlionLucada]

I doubt this is the case, but I hope this serves as a lesson for people who feel the need to RP something exclusive and rare in a games canon. If you can't come up with something interesting without slapping on a "oh also they're a member of a super exclusive and secretive order and they kill god beasts" you need to bone up on your RP 101.

 

I feel the same way about seeing people who RP Garleans of such high ranks that they'd be rubbing elbows with the likes of Gaius and Nael or ruling over their own castrum. Think small and nuanced, not grand and braggy when it comes to your characters.

[Kilieit]

We knew getting into the Knights Dragoon was hard, but we didn't know it was supposed to be this exclusive until literally yesterday for the most part. It was in "reasonable for a character who was born in the right place + had the right political motivation + worked hard & exclusively at it for long enough" territory.

 

I think simplifying it down to "people who RP'd dragoons just wanted to do something cool and special, like high-ranking military officers!" is pretty rude. Given, again. We didn't know it was supposed to be so elite there were only 30 of them until yesterday. We already know there's a limited number of Garlean officers with their own castrum; there was literally no way to extrapolate this information about dragoons until it was given to us, so I think faulting people for acting under a different assumption is expecting people to live up to impossible standards.

[V'aleera]

"oh also they're a member of a super exclusive and secretive order and they kill god beasts"

 

Dragons, specifically the ones whose deaths bought rank and prestige, were certainly tough little cookies but "God beast" is a vast overestimation of their average level of power.

 

Then there's also the fact that the "super exclusive order" could straight up be lucked into by Bob the Ballista Guy.

 

This is an odd decision, and I'm curious to see if it stands once Koji comments on the various errors present in the book. Either way it doesn't affect me personally that much and just serves to shove me down one of the avenues I'd already been considering for my character moving forward.

[Kilieit]

This is an odd decision, and I'm curious to see if it stands once Koji comments on the various errors present in the book.

 

Oh God, if it turns out to be a typo from 300 I'm gonna... throw something.

 

Probably a party for my poor dragoon friends?